Immigration reform ideas.

[NiteRunner81]

Duel -- can you guess whether I'd be at the head of the class or not?

I'll give you a hint... "If its good for the goose, its good for the gander!!!"

[Duel of Fates]

Great. Now I got an image in my head of Nite in a catholic school uniform.

But I am not a teacher, I am more like the cynical kid that sat in the back always asking WHY???

[NiteRunner81]

For those who need some clarification -- basically if Mexico wants to have strict policies they should be able to accept the consequences of the same policies in any country they immigrate to.

If they don't like the way things are down there they need to stand and fight and change Mexico, not come to the USA and try and change our ways.

[(SWGO)SirPepsi]

:eek:

For those who need some clarification -- basically if Mexico wants to have strict policies they should be able to accept the consequences of the same policies in any country they immigrate to.

If they don't like the way things are down there they need to stand and fight and change Mexico, not come to the USA and try and change our ways.

Mexico is not comprised of a uniform body of people, all connected to some borg-like entity. Each person has different views and may or may not approve of the country's immigration laws. Many Mexican citizens do not have direct access to their government, as the development of linkage institutions that typically accompanies effective democratic countries does not exist in Mexico. The slow allocation of liberties prior to being given political rights was also not what happened in Mexico, whereas most political scientists believe this provides the best foundation for political efficacy in future citizens. They don't influence policy as easily as we do, and the poor who tend to be the ones illegally immigrating here have the smallest voice. I really doubt they pushed for the barbaric laws on the books, and somehow I doubt they are even aware of them. Grouping "them" into a single category and expecting to be able to generalize like that is not going really going to provide an accurate view of the situation. The Government, having instituted those laws, could likely not care less as to the state of United States illegal-immigration policy (well, not entirely true, but you get the point), and they certainly aren't actively pushing us to change them.

As to what Bryant said: I feel as though we could debate whether or not government safety nets breed lack of motivation, etc., but I understand where your views come from. The same to you, Duel.

[NiteRunner81]

Then we, being the people of "superior power" should help them make change, instead of putting pacifiers in their mouth and letting our tax dollars go down there and perpetuate their poverty. I have no problem in helping those who want to help themselves, but a huge lot of them don't seem to have the motivation. They want to influence us to elect officials that will give them more social services in our country.. If we used a 10th of the resources we spent on them to help them make their country a better place for them to live everyone would be happy...

[Duel of Fates]

When you have the president of Mexico giving the US [poo] about how we treat illegal immigrants when they have these policies in place, it kind of makes you shake your head in disgust. Everybody wants the US to have open borders and allow anyone to enter without due process, but when it comes to their country, well, you gringos keep your noses out of our business. Kind of makes sense. NOT. Especially in this day and age. We are at war with terrorists around the world and they would love nothing more than to hit us at home. An open border seems nice and utopian, until you realize that you have no clue who is crossing over borders. Most of the illegals are just trying to get to America for a better way of life, and I don't begrudge them for trying to better their lives. But that does not blind me to fact that criminals and terrorists can use these "open" borders to gain access and cause damage and death to the citizens of America. The borders should have been secured before 9-11. They really had no excuse for not securing the borders after 9-11. And 14 years later, it is a sad reminder of how much our government is broken to realize that the borders are still not secure. I blame Clinton, Bush, and Obama for that. A real leader would have made the case to the American people and gotten that done. If you want immigration reform, SECURE THE DAMN BORDERS FIRST.

Also, we have politicians and the Chamber of Commerce pushing for "comprehensive" immigration reform because we need these people to fill jobs and keep our economy strong? How does that jive with the fact that we have over 20 million able bodied Americans unable to find work, on unemployment, or dropped out of the work force entirely due to the economic policies of this administration? We don't "need" illegal immigrants for a strong economy. What we do need to keep the economy strong is less government interference in the private sector. But that is another argument for another thread.

And for those of you stating the fact that the US was enriched by immigrants, I agree. We were the great melting pot of cultures. But those were LEGAL immigrants. They had to adhere to the immigration policies put in place at the time. And they worked towards a common goal of becoming citizens, not just immigrants. They did not sneak across a border, stow away in cargo ships, or hire coyotes to smuggle them into the country. Apples and oranges mi amigos.

Side note. Pepsi, define " political efficacy " please. Your post sounds like you copied it from some text written by tenured professors that do not live in the real world. If that is all you, well, you are getting your money's worth out of your thesaurus.

[(SWGO)Kren]

The reason I posted into your American debate is that we have the same thing happening across Europe; open borders, immigration issues and terrorist threats. The reason I posted that immigration has been success for America is because that's what it is. Immigrants who do not follow the law and arrive in a country undetected is a real cause for concern but at the same time there is no doubting they contributes to the economy even though such employers are breaking the law by employing such individuals.

Immigration across most countries (including the US) has been happening for years before policies were formulated and put into law. Given that immigrants are protected by law irrespective of their status in most countries the cost of reformation is significant to detect those individuals who bypassed lawful enty method, to prevent them from entering across open borders in future, deporting that person or actually that person becoming a citizen.

In the US the Federal and state governments in respect of the fourteenth amendment indicates that needs to ensure it does not "deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.", so in a nutshell that person is legal under the law even though they did not comply with immigration entry requirements. So when an immigrant arrives the law applies to them, a more apt term is an undocumented immigrant rather than illegal but most people use the term illegal. Most documented criminals have legal status but yet they undertake illegal acts such as murder, rape and lower type crimes. Trying to use the wide brush stroke and imply all immigrants fall under this category is incorrect, that's not saying immigrants do not have the capacity for illegal acts but it is likely that the majority come to work and/or better the lives of their families.

There is proportion of the population in this country that are capable of working but a significant number of these would rather not take up low paid work in favour of state handouts, scam the state and/or even worse undertake illegal acts to make money whilst causing misery towards others. There are people who have no intention of working like the rest of the population yet they [female dog] about immigrants who live and work here by stating they are taking our jobs. My reply to them is either “put-up or shut-up”. If an immigrant was better suited to a job and was given it than myself it is likely to mean that they are better suited for the job, it happens, live with it.

Personally I don't agree with immigrants arriving without the necessary paperwork but unless a government (irrespective of country/political party) is willing to invest heavily in law reformations, border security, resources and the power to enforce the law then it will continue to happen. Not only does the UK have their own laws but we have European law to adhere to which further complicates things over here and this applies to a lot of other things which is in my opinion highly beaurcratic and often detrimental to the society/economy I live in.

Good luck to you guys in the US getting the immigration mess sorted-out.

Kren

[NiteRunner81]

Duel,

Thanks for pointing out another factoid... I laugh at these fools that say that the white folk won't do certain jobs.. My mom picked strawberries in the summer during high school and college. My brother wanted to do the same last summer but due to all the "undocumented workers" there was no room for the white boy....

We could also fix another debate if we would close our borders.. but I will start the debate in another thread.... The minimum wage debate.

EDIT:

And Kren -- its never been that undocumented workers are more suited for a job than a white person, its the federal and state kick backs that employers get by hiring a certain percentage of minorities.. ever heard of affirmative action?? Something that affects my husband directly since he's been told multiple times that if he wasn't white he would have been hired on at Intel (he is a contractor) as a FTE YEARS ago. How is that [m'kay] fair??

[WD-40]

All I know is, the McDonald's near where I work is manned by an ass-load of Mexicans fresh over the boarder (in VA). Their dialect is so bad, that I can't understand what the damned breakfast special is over the loud speaker.

[haasd0gg]

All I know is, the McDonald's near where I work is manned by an ass-load of Mexicans fresh over the boarder (in VA). Their dialect is so bad, that I can't understand what the damned breakfast special is over the loud speaker.

If you keep eating at McDonalds, , you won't need to be angry for long...


Note to self- add grim reaper smilie