Why MT doesn't believe in this.

[Yanoda]

This is the problem with the Bible I kept addressing, it is easily interpreted in different ways based on the situation and view of the interpreter. Don't forget that at the same time (Dark Ages, AKA the Middle Ages), many people were executed for questioning the Bible or did actions (harmless) that were not wanted by the Church in the name of God.

You, can't judge the bible by the actions of those who claim to follow it. People doing evil things in the name of God was foretold by his son Jesus Christ when he was on earth. At Matt 13:24-26, Jesus gave an Illustration, and explained it in vs 37-39

Read my statement again. I never said the Bible commanded these actions, it were the individuals that interpreted the Bible that did the actions.

During the following 2 centuries, Bible truth became corrupted with Greek Mythology, and many people started accepting pagan doctrines and teaching as bible truths. So when in the 4th century Constantine adopted Christianity as the religion of the Holy Roman Empire it was as Jesus said over run with weeds or false teaching. So many of these Holy Wars and atrocities being committed in the name of God are actually being fueled by Satan the Devil.

I understand that what your saying is that the interpretation of the bible basically depends on who does the interpreting, but there are enough things in the bible that are straight forward enough to know if the one interpreting it , is doing it correctly.

Review the history of religions etc.
Paganism and Greek Mythology (among others) came before Christianity, Judaism and Islam. So it cannot be assumed that the religions before the 'big 3' corrupted them. Many pagan rituals were implemented into the Bible as well. Don't forget that monotheistic religions came from polytheism. The religions 'evolved' to meet the 'needs' at the time. I would recommend reading: "A History of God: The 4,000-Year Quest of Judaism, Christianity and Islam". Quite informative.

So I ask, what is the right religion? How do we know if the Monotheistic God is false and that the Greek Gods are true or vise-versa? As you stated, there are several contradictions what some religions preach and act. Though, the 10 Commandments also have their flaws and several of them cannot be properly applied anymore today.

Well for starters i did mean moral, and i wasn't necesarily talking about Egyptian moral, more like general.
You see the moral i'm talking about isn't based on the bible but of statements of historians, for example the fact that the Amorites by law were allowed to have intercourse with cattle while in other cases there was no restrictions, if anyone here by common sence doesn't state this is inmoral then there is something wrong with you lol.
As far as lev 13-14 goes ill copy/paste it when i get home, from what i'm reading the priests had to inspect these posible lepra cases and depending on the case and color declare it one way or another.
I don't find anything regarding a bird
Mt

Morality is not as black and white as several assume MT. Can you post a link/source proving your statement that "Amorites were allowed to have intercourse with cattle". I could not find anything concerning this. If it is moral or not is another subject, morality is based on the views of the individual and does not necessarily mean that others hold the same view. Stealing may be considered immoral for some, but others state that it is not, based on the situation. What morals were the norm at the time do not directly apply to us now. Our societies' morality changes over time and will continue to do so.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=KJV
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=KJV
Clearly states that sacrifices need to be made.

the smell sure as hell wasn't ovbios in the middle ages, and most people around israel at that time nor in the future followed said rules, so as far as my unanswered question goes, how did moses raised by Egyptians knew all this? There was no science to proove anything all these laws weren't ussed by the rest of humanity till the last freaking 100' s of years, moses wasn't tought any of this, yet after leaving Egypte he stated all this
Mt

Smell wasn't obvious? You do realize at the time (the Middle Ages) people lived in terrible conditions, ever thought that they didn't have the means to use hygiene. It was the same way as several people live in Africa today. Ever considered that maybe this information was already available at the time?
Where did you get this information MT?
Did some research on Egyptian health and life expectancy, and indicate other reasons for their low life expectancy among other health problems from yours.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/eg ... h_01.shtml
Having a lack of hygiene was the least of their problems.
In your previous post, you claimed that Moses knew about hygiene but never indicated a source, please provide since I couldn't find anything. Though, I presume that Moses had different reasons in cleaning than what was found in 1830 as you claim. Please state the name of the Doctor and please give the correct name of the fever, Farrowing Fever occurs in pigs, not women.

The first mistake yet again is binding the bible to a religion.
The curch back then did do such things, but i also recall them stating that bad people would go to hell for an eternal suffering, however the bible doesn't state this.
Mt

Read again, I did not bind the Bible to a specific religion. Though the Bible does arise religion.
Merriam Webster definition of Religion:
1 a : the state of a religious <a nun in her 20th year of religion>
b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2: a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3 archaic : scrupulous conformity : conscientiousness
4: a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith
So technically Religion and the Bible go hand in hand.
Bible doesn't state hell? http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... rsion=KJ21
It does mention hell...

As far as spreading these laws i don't recall the name p(i have to look it up) there was a man during the plague that applied the laws of the bible recalling cleansiness as a consequence that village/region had no rats, wich meant no plague, stats show that only less then 5% of the people there became sick.
He spread the word about it, but instead of others applying this method they tortured him and excecuted him. Because they tought that since there were little to no people sick there that he was one of the persons spreading the plague
Mt

Please give proper names and sources. Otherwise your arguments can be just considered claims. Rats were not the direct cause for the plague but the fleas that sucked blood from them. Read: G. Christakos "Interdisciplinary Public Health Reasoning and Epidemic Modelling: The Case of Black Death"
Don't forget that the disease/bacteria (Yersinia Pestis) is able to be spread not only by fleas & rats but also through skin contact, sneezing and coughing. Once a sufficient amount of individuals are infected, they can spread it to others.

Cheers

Yanoda

[(SWGO)Minas_Thirith]

Smell wasn't obvious? You do realize at the time (the Middle Ages) people lived in terrible conditions, ever thought that they didn't have the means to use hygiene. It was the same way as several people live in Africa today. Ever considered that maybe this information was already available at the time?
Where did you get this information MT?
Did some research on Egyptian health and life expectancy, and indicate other reasons for their low life expectancy among other health problems from yours.

Actually yes, the link you provided did comfirm some of my previos claims and thus answers your question

Having a lack of hygiene was the least of their problems.
In your previous post, you claimed that Moses knew about hygiene but never indicated a source, please provide since I couldn't find anything. Though, I presume that Moses had different reasons in cleaning than what was found in 1830 as you claim. Please state the name of the Doctor and please give the correct name of the fever, Farrowing Fever occurs in pigs, not women.

First, what i'm stating is that moses was the one to write down the laws, hygiene was unknown in those times, there was no science to provide in this either, yet the laws that moses gave the people were hygenic, do remember i never stated that moses knew why these laws had to be applied, as in my eyes he was the tool for the mind, while in the case of people that don't think god told him anything, then somehow he must have magically come up with these laws that for some reason prevented diseases from spreading.
Google translator fails me again, *sigh* i was talking about puerperal fever wich was the cause of death in many cases of childbirth, now the doctor i was talking about is called ignaz semmelweis, by his hygene measures the death rate of womans in those times dropped dramaticly(from 17% is his department to less then 2% as far as i know), instead of commending him they fired him.
IF semmelweis in the year 1847 tests this and it actually worked, how come that moses already knew this thousands of years before a ACTUAL DOCTOR finds out that touching dead bodies without afterwards washing your hands meant death in certain cases, so how come in moses time the law was if you touched a dead body you were unclean for 7 days?

I did not bind the Bible to a specific religion
Merriam Webster definition of Religion:
So technically Religion and the Bible go hand in hand.
Bible doesn't state hell? http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... rsion=KJ21
It does mention hell....

You did seem to bind the church ways to what the bible teaches, even tough what the church did what then wasn't acording to biblical laws
Also just saying biblegateway isn't reliable, just an FYI but you might notice that a certain word that is written over 7000 times in the bible isn't mencioned in biblegateway
As far as hell goes, there is no burning forever in hell being tortured by the devil in a red costume, nor does the bible state that good people (besides the 144000 wich you have to read before you could understand it) go to heaven after they die


Please give proper names and sources. Otherwise your arguments can be just considered claims. Rats were not the direct cause for the plague but the fleas that sucked blood from them.
For starters i know enough about "the black death" i know what caused it, i know it's origin and i know it's extremely contagios, since i had to study about it before and do research work about it, the cause were rats carrying the disease in their blood of wich the flees on said rats fed on and then would pass them onto humans, with this it it found that certain diseases are harmless to certain animals making them carriers of the disease however being uneffected by them, however they can spread them to humans who can die of them.
As for the name i found it:
Dr. Balavignus who in 1348 gave the order to clean the jewish neighborhood acording to the biblical laws, if you don't believe me look him up

Cheers

Yanoda

Answers in Bold

MT

[Darth Crater]

MT, your argument only looks at one subsection of ancient culture (the Middle East) and one section of later culture (Europe / "Western"). How do the Jews' laws about uncleanliness differ from, say, the Hindu caste system (in which only the "untouchables" work with waste or corpses)? What about the Americas or Asia; how did cultures there behave? The Middle East wasn't some magical bastion of exceptional health, as far as I'm aware (unless you're counting the Muslim empires of around the 12th century, who did indeed develop greater medical knowledge than Europe would have for some time, but that just indicates that Europe was horrifically backward in that respect). Also, you should consider how much of this behavior (like defecating away from sleeping/eating sites) is shared by other animals. It's simply a good survival strategy.

Was Moses the one who wrote Genesis? Was he the one who compiled the Jewish laws? I don't remember currently whether either of those has any supporting evidence; could someone with more biblical experience fill me in?

MT, would you care to address any of the points above (posted on the last page)?

As for a couple of things in your more recent post:
-what problem in particular do you have with the site Yanoda is using as a Biblical reference? It seems to have all of the relevant translations available.
-When we ask for sources and references, we prefer actual links to scholarly or primary sources.

[Col. Hstar]

Review the history of religions etc.
Paganism and Greek Mythology (among others) came before Christianity, Judaism and Islam. So it cannot be assumed that the religions before the 'big 3' corrupted them.

Yes it can be assumed. Your saying that a popular belief of the time, Paganism and Greek Mythology could not have had influence on those who were corrupting Christianity?

For instance:
In the bible Jesus taught his followers to worship only one God Jehovah. Matt 4:10 - 10 Then Jesus said to him: “Go away, Satan! For it is written, ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service. Matt 22:37 - “You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind.” He left no room for any other god, deity, or symbol for true Christians to worship.

So you have to ask now, why is it that the popular view of Christianity includes the honoring and veneration of "Saints". This is because during the 2nd century C.E while the apostate Christianity was taking shape, the tendency was to make popular, a religion that would appeal to pagan people and be acceptable to them. With the new religion being strictly monotheistic and pagans worshiping a multitude of gods, they made compromises. they replaced the many different gods with saints. I'm going to cut and paste this paragraph from the New Encyclopedic Dictionary because it explains it well:
"In the rendering of honor to the saints of the Greek Orthodox Church, we find obvious traces of the strong influence that pagan religion had. Qualities that were attributed to the Olympian gods before [people] were converted to Christianity were now ascribed to the saints. . . . From the early years of the new religion, we see its adherents replacing the sun-god (Phoebus Apollo) with the Prophet Elijah, building churches on, or next to, the ruins of ancient temples or shrines of this god, mostly on the top of hills and mountains, at every place where the ancient Greeks honored the light-giver Phoebus Apollo. . . . They even identified the Virgin-goddess Athena with the Virgin Mary herself. Thus, the gap that was created when the idol of Athena was torn down was eliminated within the soul of the converted idolater.”

Another point, let's look at the roots of Christmas.
1st The custom is Jesus was born on Dec 25 and it's a celebration of his birth, but this is not the case. Actually the festival of Christmas comes from pagan Roman festivals that were held at yeas end. The Christmas Encyclopedia says “The establishment of December 25 evolved not from biblical precedent but from pagan Roman festivals held at year’s end,” about the time of the winter solstice in the Northern Hemisphere. Those festivals included the Saturnalia, in honor of Saturn, god of agriculture, “and the combined festivals of two sun gods, the Roman Sol and the Persian Mithra.” now these pagan festivals began to be “Christianized” in the year 350, when Pope Julius I declared December 25 to be Christ’s birthday. ( as small side point the Encyclopedia of Religion says “Solar imagery came increasingly to be used to portray the risen Christ, who was also called Sol Invictus, and the old solar disk became the halo of Christian saints.”) But now if you look at what the Bible shows of the account about Jesus' birth you see that there is no way possible for him to have been born Dec 25. When he was born shepherds were living out doors with their flocks, the cold, rainy season usually began in October, and shepherds brought their sheep into shelter at night, in December the cold was even worse and probably accompanied by snow. No sane shepherd would have his flock out in the cold like that.
2nd - What does Santa Claus and gift giving have to do with the birth of Jesus? Santa Claus is viewed as the one who brings children gifts. but the myth of Santa Claus owes its origin to Saint Nicholas, Archbishop of Myra in Asia Minor. Isn't it weird that a festival celebrating Jesus who taught complete honesty, would include the little white lie some parent tell their little kids? For the gift giving we go back to Ancient Roman Saturnalian festivities which began on December 17 and concluded on the 24th, when gifts were exchanged. Again another pagan festival made part of "Christianity"

These are just 2 examples of Christianity becoming over-sown by the weeds of Paganism. It was all done to make the religion more appealing to the general public.

[Col. Hstar]

Was Moses the one who wrote Genesis? Was he the one who compiled the Jewish laws? I don't remember currently whether either of those has any supporting evidence; could someone with more biblical experience fill me in?

Yes under the inspiration of God Moses wrote Genesis. The first 5 books of the bible are generally referred to as The Book of the Law of Moses

Yes he was the one who received the law form god and gave it to the Israelite people, again it's why it referred to as the Law of Moses

[Yanoda]

Actually yes, the link you provided did comfirm some of my previos claims and thus answers your question [/b]
MT

Previous link for reference: http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/eg ... h_01.shtml
Nothing in the link answers any question I asked you MT or confirms your assumptions. You still haven't addressed Crater's questions which I would also have answered. You also haven't provided any sources supporting your claim either.
Do not forget, as Crater also mentioned, other cultures had similar rules concerning hygiene at the time. Like I said before, the information was likely available at the time but was not widely implemented in certain regions, but the knowledge stayed.

First, what i'm stating is that moses was the one to write down the laws, hygiene was unknown in those times, there was no science to provide in this either, yet the laws that moses gave the people were hygenic, do remember i never stated that moses knew why these laws had to be applied, as in my eyes he was the tool for the mind, while in the case of people that don't think god told him anything, then somehow he must have magically come up with these laws that for some reason prevented diseases from spreading.
MT

Again you make the assumption that hygiene did not exist anywhere at the time MT, which is not the case. As previous statements I made, a possible reason how Moses knew about this was that the knowledge was already there but wasn't applied in the region. Also, there is no proof that Moses was the actual Author of the first few books. Don't forget that the Bible has been altered several times over the Ages, so it brings about a sense of distrust of the Bible.

Google translator fails me again, *sigh* i was talking about puerperal fever wich was the cause of death in many cases of childbirth, now the doctor i was talking about is called ignaz semmelweis, by his hygene measures the death rate of womans in those times dropped dramaticly(from 17% is his department to less then 2% as far as i know), instead of commending him they fired him.
IF semmelweis in the year 1847 tests this and it actually worked, how come that moses already knew this thousands of years before a ACTUAL DOCTOR finds out that touching dead bodies without afterwards washing your hands meant death in certain cases, so how come in moses time the law was if you touched a dead body you were unclean for 7 days?
MT

You left out several aspects in terms of Doctors at the time MT. The concept Dr. Semmelweis proposed conflicted with the existing medical concepts etc. Semmelweis used antiseptics in his experimentation and showed a decrease of up to 90% of fever fatalities.
By what exactly does the Bible refer to unclean? This is a major question I had over some time since you mentioned it. Why is it that touching a human body, one is unclean for 7 days yet when one touches a dead animal, you're only unclean for 1 day? If the disease has spread to the person that touched the corpse (it also doesn't distinguish between a 1 minute old corpse to a 1 week old one), he'll likely get affected by it regardless if he/she waits 7 days or not. Don't forget that the disease can manifest itself much later than 7 days and be spread among others. Since the individual is unclean, doesn't it mean that whatever they touch or come in contact would make it unclean as well?
Bodies were disposed of even before Moses (likely for the same reasons as 'uncleanliness)... so one cannot just assume he was the first one that brought the concept.

You did seem to bind the church ways to what the bible teaches, even tough what the church did what then wasn't acording to biblical laws
Also just saying biblegateway isn't reliable, just an FYI but you might notice that a certain word that is written over 7000 times in the bible isn't mencioned in biblegateway
As far as hell goes, there is no burning forever in hell being tortured by the devil in a red costume, nor does the bible state that good people (besides the 144000 wich you have to read before you could understand it) go to heaven after they die

MT

First, if you're going to quote me, don't leave out aspects of them when you address my argument (ie. removing the Merriam Webster's definition of religion which clearly supported my argument). 'Seem' is not the same as 'stating', though in my last point concerning the specific argument, I did imply it based on the definition of religion.
Why is 'biblegateway' not a reliable source? If you haven't noticed, the site offers the different translations of the 40+ different Bible versions. The link I gave was from the '21st Century King James Version' which may be the one that you do not believe in/follow. I double checked to see if the verses were correct for the specific version and it was. Also, what word wasn't mentioned in biblegateway? You state a word wasn't used but don't state what the word was? Very weak argument there...
If hell doesn't exist (or not mentioned in the Bible), then why do so many people believe in it or call it "eternal damnation/destruction"? Isn't that the same?
Thessalonians 1 - http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... rsion=KJ21
Clearly states that those who do not follow God, experience eternal destruction. Again, many will say it means differently based on their interpretation, supporting my long statement that the Bible is unclear and open to interpretation.

For starters i know enough about "the black death" i know what caused it, i know it's origin and i know it's extremely contagios, since i had to study about it before and do research work about it, the cause were rats carrying the disease in their blood of wich the flees on said rats fed on and then would pass them onto humans, with this it it found that certain diseases are harmless to certain animals making them carriers of the disease however being uneffected by them, however they can spread them to humans who can die of them.
As for the name i found it:
Dr. Balavignus who in 1348 gave the order to clean the jewish neighborhood acording to the biblical laws, if you don't believe me look him up
MT

It wasn't the er whether I believed you or not, but the reference and source so that I may also read and understand your argument. The name helped a lot in finding the information your were referring to. Links:
http://home.sprynet.com/~pabco/tw0172_health.htm
http://www.hope-of-israel.org/bihealth.htm
Though they state several things about the knowledge that Moses provided, the arguments were only concentrating on specific points of the Bible.
For example. The first link 'sprynet' talked about Leviticus being the earliest forms of quarantine, but they left out the part (which I posted a link in previous posts) which sacrifices needed to be made to heal the individual. Why leave out the second part and yet hail the first as a clear indication of God's/Moses' knowledge etc.?

Yes it can be assumed. Your saying that a popular belief of the time, Paganism and Greek Mythology could not have had influence on those who were corrupting Christianity?

I wasn't as clear I think. Paganism and Polytheism occurred before Monotheism arose. How can you be sure that Monotheism is not the corrupted form that arose from different ideas than those who supported polytheism? Also, you cannot just claim one form of belief to be corrupting another since there is no evidence that either one is correct. You make a harsh statement without direct evidence (not what you mentioned since they occurred much later in time and cannot be called 'corruption').
Your other statements are correct, that is also why Christianity was able to spread and become the 2nd largest religion today. It adapted to the beliefs of other religions and implemented it to encompass different views. Now, the question is: Which specific view/religion is the correct one? Is it the religions (polytheism) that came before monotheism (ie Christianity) or is it one of the other 100+ religions that exist in the world? People support their religion because they grew up with it and believe in it. Belief of something is not proof either.

Yes under the inspiration of God Moses wrote Genesis. The first 5 books of the bible are generally referred to as The Book of the Law of Moses
Yes he was the one who received the law form god and gave it to the Israelite people, again it's why it referred to as the Law of Moses

Is there specific evidence proofing this claim? All we have so far are claims that Moses wrote it and that God commanded him, no definite proof to support this... Don't forget that the Bible has been altered several times over so we cannot assume that everything in there is true (that also means Moses as the author).

Something different now. Concerning the 10 Commandments, why does God command that one shall not kill yet God is responsible for many deaths (the Flood comes to mind as several claim it is true). Isn't that considered hypocritical to tell someone to not kill but being responsible for many deaths? Thoughts?

Cheers

Yanoda

[haasd0gg]

"...and haasd0gg said, 'I will let you all continue to live... for now...' "

[Col. Hstar]

Something different now. Concerning the 10 Commandments, why does God command that one shall not kill yet God is responsible for many deaths (the Flood comes to mind as several claim it is true). Isn't that considered hypocritical to tell someone to not kill but being responsible for many deaths? Thoughts?

Let's look at this from another point of view. Parents who are raising children, will teach them, not to hurt, others, obviously not to kill others. But what does that parent do to let's say an animal, or a evil person who is threatening to take the life of their child. The child is defenseless, tell me what you would do in that situation. You would do what you had to in order to protect your child, even to the point of taking the life of the aggressor if they persisted. Would you view that parent hypocritical?

Since you bring up the flood, I will use that example:
Well before the flood in the Garden of Eden, after Adam and Eve rebelled, god promised that his original purpose would be carried out. That being that righteous mankind would live forever on the earth in perfect and peaceful conditions. In Noah's days things were so bad and only Noah and his family were following Gods Laws and guidelines. They were threatened by the wicked people of that time and God was not going to allow that to happen.
But this was not just a casual killing of an entire generation of people. Remember that by Noah's day wicked demons had already come down to earth and had relations with humans, creating cruel wicked superhuman type men called Nephilim. At Genesis 6:3 God resolved to remove the corrupt system of things on earth, and he foretold he would do so in 120 years. He commissioned Noah to build the ark which was not a small job. in those 120 years Noah and his wife had 3 sons, who also grew up and got married themselves, in 120 years all the people could see what Noah was building, they knew why, and he definitely warned them of the coming flood. They were all given the opportunity to change and follow God. But they didn't and they suffered the consequences of that decision.

[Mandalore]

You know if the Bible is true, there are remarkably few retards in regards to the amount of inbreeding involved in the process of populating the planet.

[Col. Hstar]

If evolution was true it's amazing their isn't an entire race of half-way evolved people.