Equal Rights for the LGBT Community?

[Mandalore]

I can't believe someone is using the "fulfillment" of the Old Testament prophecies for proof of Jesus' existence. For one, the people writing the Gospels had access to the Old Testament prophecies and surely wrote with this in mind. If Jesus had been such a clear fulfillment of these prophecies doesn't it stand to reason that the other Jews would have broken off and followed him?

[mrjamwin]

Mandalore there is an answer to your question. If you really want to know read the Bible. You don't have to believe in it to understand. The Bible itself is none the less a book with a story to tell. And the answer to your question is there.

Matt, I apologise to you. I was speaking in generalities. When I used the word "you" I did not mean "you personally" I did notice that the picture looked fake. I was pointing out that it's typical for people to take a single verse out the Bible and twist it.

[Mandalore]

The question was rhetorical. I have read the Bible, both the Old Testament and New Testament.
Edit: Also to throw into the discussion
Deuteronomy 20:

16 However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes.
17 Completely destroy them - the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusite - as the LORD your God has commanded you.

[(SWGO)Kren]

So...in my eye's the bible is a collection of many changed texts throughout the ages that has been diluted in many parts by the Church and other influences and is still being changed today with a lot of corruption and killings thrown into the mix.

Is there a shed of truth in some of the teachings I would like to say 'yes', did Jesus feed the multitude with only a few loaves of bread and two fish...well perhaps that is stretching the imagination it a little bit however again there was most likely some truth in him feeding people at one point in his life.

Other concerns (Teachings and the Church)

Some of the Gospels (non-canonical gospels) were left out of the bible, why? As far as I can gather they contained they expressed unorthodox or heretical views. Examples include the Gospel of Peter, the Gospel of Mary, and the Gospel of Judas but there are only fragments of these remaining. Some gospels could have been destroyed to cover up embarrassing facts about the origins of Christianity perhaps?

The Gospel of Mary contained some gnostic ideas and the prominent role that the gospel gives to a female, this in turn could have led to its removal by orthodox Christians. Why did Mary Magdalene disappear from the New Testament story?

Did Jesus say you had to attend the Church? Well I thought Jesus was of Jewish Origin and according to the bible the reference to worship was along the lines of you did not need priests and Jewish worship is on a Satuday not a Sunday? So why all the focus on a attending a building called a church every Sunday to show worship?

The English word translated “church” in the New Testament is based on the Greek word basically translates to “ekklesia”. If you look up the word in a Greek dictionary, one will find a definition that says something to the effect of “the called out ones”. So in other word he is calling his people to worship where they can and not in a Church. Yeah, yeah I know people go there to worship however I do see how this is the focal point for prayer/worship except that it has been built up through the eons to be a single place of worship.

Throughout the ages the Catholic Church in my opinion has been a corrupt set of power hungry people, with material wealth; Gold embossed crosses, cups. The stunning Garb that the priests, Bishops are clothed in were funded from somewhere as were the massive Stone buildings (Churches, Ministers etc). The place of worship has shown to be an accumulation of power, status and wealth. In this day and age you have sermons being preached on the TV and Internet requesting donations to fund the Church. A multi billion pound Organisation with plenty of people wanting to pay their way into Heaven through a faith that never asked for any of that.

In respect of the above Christians should be aware of the following:

"For false anointed ones and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.” (Matthew 24:24)

"Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.” (Matthew 7:13-14)

“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. (Matthew 7:15)

Has the Church become a place where corruption and wealth has accumulated over the years to blind the very faith of Christianity and its initial teachings? I would have to say it has.

Don't get me started on the Crusades, the inquisition etc as these only demonstrate further the bloody past of this faith. I know other faiths have done the same but as we are discussing Christianity here are some of the darker and misleading aspects of this faith.

If the people who started this faith could only see where it has gone they would no doubt be horrified.

[WD-40]

I can't believe someone is using the "fulfillment" of the Old Testament prophecies for proof of Jesus' existence.

I certainly didn't use the Old Testament as 'proof' Jesus lived. That's in the writings of those that 'witnessed' him 'living'.

For one, the people writing the Gospels had access to the Old Testament prophecies and surely wrote with this in mind.

I believe they simply wrote what happened. If it were untrue, then they would have immediately been called out as liers by the other witnesses. Whether or not you wish to tie in Old Testament prophesy to his life is up to you. Personally, I don't care what you choose.

If Jesus had been such a clear fulfillment of these prophecies doesn't it stand to reason that the other Jews would have broken off and followed him?

No.

There was a different view of a Messiah that the Jews had back then..A 'deliverer' from oppression under Roman Rule, and a Powerful 'Earthly' Ruler to take over and take care of business. Also, the powers that be back then were the Priests, and they had no intention of giving up any power that they selfishly had. Alot of Jews didn't want to believe or chose not to.
God needed a way and wanted to bridge the gap of sin between God and Man. The old testament way of obiedience to God was not working. That was the purpose of Christ's birth, to bridge that separation thru belief in God's Holy Son...not to 'blow sh-it up and kill their enemies.

[WD-40]

If the people who started this faith could only see where it has gone they would no doubt be horrified.

They'd say: "Holy Sh-it, there's 2.1 billion Christians in the world today!"
(about one third of the total population of the planet)

However, it is now impossible to say with any certainty, as, while practicing Christians have been in decline in some Western countries, there has been a recent surge in 'membership' in parts of the West, and in the East the numbers who are becoming new Christians daily is astronomical. There are estimated now nearly 100 million Christians in China (compared with just 5,000 in the 1960s) and in South Korea, churches regularly have tens of thousands of members each. In one church, the Yoido Full Gospel Church in Seoul, there are over 800,000 members who meet each Sunday in several sittings in a vast hall. So, whilst it is difficult to give a definite answer to the actual number of Christians in the world (estimates range from 2 - 3 billion), Christianity remains the most dominant of the world, and is still growing at an astonishing rate. Not bad for those Founders of 'The Way'...The pre-Christian name for this religious phenomenon.

By the numbers:
1. # Christianity: 2.1 billion
2. # Islam: 1.5 billion
3. # Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist: 1.1 billion
4. # Hinduism: 900 million
5. # Chinese traditional religion: 394 million
6. # Buddhism: 376 million
7. # primal-indigenous: 300 million
8. # African Traditional & Diasporic: 100 million
9. # Sikhism: 23 million
10. # Juche: 19 million
11. # Spiritism: 15 million
12. # Judaism: 14 million (This is for mandalore...well the Christians came from Judiasm so something musta worked)
13. # Baha'i: 7 million
14. # Jainism: 4.2 million
15. # Shinto: 4 million
16. # Cao Dai: 4 million
17. # Zoroastrianism: 2.6 million
18. # Tenrikyo: 2 million
19. # Neo-Paganism: 1 million
20. # Unitarian-Universalism: 800 thousand
21. # Rastafarianism: 600 thousand
22. # Scientology: 500 thousand

Yeah, there have been some poor leaders in Christianity, and trying to force any religion onto anyone is not the way to do it(like the Crusades, Muslims doing likewise in their own violent way today in various Muslim countries). But it seems to be working. It's not perfect, but humans are certainly not perfect.

[Mandalore]

More accurately
"HOLY [poo], 2.1 BILLION? Wait...how many of them are of Jewish origin? That few? Well [m'kay] the rest then. This is in-group morality boys!

[WD-40]

More accurately
"HOLY [poo], 2.1 BILLION? Wait...how many of them are of Jewish origin? That few? Well [m'kay] the rest then. This is in-group morality boys!

Wow! Very eloquent.
Jewish Origin is irrelevant, although there are many Christian-Jews as well. The numbers clearly show that where the 'old' way (Judiasm) has stagnated, the 'new' way (Christianity) has flourished. I guess the Jews are still waiting for the Messiah...then maybe they'll grow?

[mrjamwin]

So...in my eye's the bible is a collection of many changed texts throughout the ages that has been diluted in many parts by the Church and other influences and is still being changed today with a lot of corruption and killings thrown into the mix.

You'll need to examples to prove this argument.

Is there a shed of truth in some of the teachings I would like to say 'yes', did Jesus feed the multitude with only a few loaves of bread and two fish...well perhaps that is stretching the imagination it a little bit however again there was most likely some truth in him feeding people at one point in his life.

Well, if you believe in a god or God then you would believe that Jesus was capable of doing such a miracle.Other concerns (Teachings and the Church)

Some of the Gospels (non-canonical gospels) were left out of the bible, why? As far as I can gather they contained they expressed unorthodox or heretical views. Examples include the Gospel of Peter, the Gospel of Mary, and the Gospel of Judas but there are only fragments of these remaining. Some gospels could have been destroyed to cover up embarrassing facts about the origins of Christianity perhaps?

Well the councils that put together the New Testament thought so. So you answered your own question. In regards to the other gospels. Maybe you should read them for yourself and see.

The Gospel of Mary contained some gnostic ideas and the prominent role that the gospel gives to a female, this in turn could have led to its removal by orthodox Christians. Why did Mary Magdalene disappear from the New Testament story?

She didn't. She's still in the New Testament. Look

Did Jesus say you had to attend the Church? Well I thought Jesus was of Jewish Origin and according to the bible the reference to worship was along the lines of you did not need priests and Jewish worship is on a Satuday not a Sunday? So why all the focus on a attending a building called a church every Sunday to show worship?

Well the Church if you look at the actual definition means body of believers. The Church building is just that a building and a typical place for believers to worship. Very much like a synagoge. Jesus on many occasions taught in a synagoge. Also the term Christian means followers of Christ. So Jesus was Jewish, he was not a Christian. Jews acknowledge Saturday as the day of rest were as Christians Sunday. It was er of choice given during the Dark Ages.

The English word translated “church” in the New Testament is based on the Greek word basically translates to “ekklesia”. If you look up the word in a Greek dictionary, one will find a definition that says something to the effect of “the called out ones”. So in other word he is calling his people to worship where they can and not in a Church. Yeah, yeah I know people go there to worship however I do see how this is the focal point for prayer/worship except that it has been built up through the eons to be a single place of worship.


Throughout the ages the Catholic Church in my opinion has been a corrupt set of power hungry people, with material wealth; Gold embossed crosses, cups. The stunning Garb that the priests, Bishops are clothed in were funded from somewhere as were the massive Stone buildings (Churches, Ministers etc). The place of worship has shown to be an accumulation of power, status and wealth. In this day and age you have sermons being preached on the TV and Internet requesting donations to fund the Church. A multi billion pound Organisation with plenty of people wanting to pay their way into Heaven through a faith that never asked for any of that.



In respect of the above Christians should be aware of the following:

"For false anointed ones and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.” (Matthew 24:24)

"Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.” (Matthew 7:13-14)

“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. (Matthew 7:15)

Has the Church become a place where corruption and wealth has accumulated over the years to blind the very faith of Christianity and its initial teachings? I would have to say it has.

Again, I think you need some examples to prove this. If you're going to say "look at the Catholics" I won't argue with you. But I think you're over generalizing your perspective.

Don't get me started on the Crusades, the inquisition etc as these only demonstrate further the bloody past of this faith. I know other faiths have done the same but as we are discussing Christianity here are some of the darker and misleading aspects of this faith.

Wow, 1500 years later and people are still hanging on this one. Let's see the last time Christians that went on a Crusade.... I'm Googling it right now. Yep just as I thought. LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONNNNNNNNG time ago. So how does that relate to today?

If the people who started this faith could only see where it has gone they would no doubt be horrified.

I'm sure you're King Arthur would say the same thing about you.

[burzerker]

I'm no biblical scholar, but the laws in Deuteronomy were for a specific time period before the Jews entered Caanan not meant for modern usage. In christianity these laws were replaced with the new covenant at the time of Jesus' death. The punishments for the sins listed in those laws were never meant in a way that they would be used, it was a way of showing the severity of the sins, there are no records of any Jew being stoned for blaspheme for example. If you care to look objectively at this try to find one example of modern day Christians or Jews carrying out these sorts of things, you won't find one (unlike current day Islam where it's easy to find stonings, etc.. in the news).