The Muslims aren't happy

[[m'kay]]

We can consider ourselves to be at least trying to make things better when we stop supporting the Saudi royal family.

[(SWGO)Kren]

Kren you kind of state things along the same lines, assuming the "West" just wants to do right by people but it's hard and it's complicated. The facts of the er are we have supported dictatorship over democracy, time and time and time again. Why? Because dictatorships are more reliable, they can be coaxed into making the "right" decisions which will benefit the strategic interests of the west. Democracy can be much more messy, they might not always do the "right" thing, and therefore all over the world, especially Latin America, Asia, and the middle east - we have worked hard, spent trillions, and killed millions to try to prevent democracy.

I think in 50 years there will not be a dictatorship left in the region.

The thing is Matt that I was actually indicating that it is a never ending cycle of violence hence the reason people in such states would be unhappy.

You've then got the mind-set that because their neighbours are of a different religion or have historically has fought against them you have deep entwined hatred being festered down from the old to the young. Bring the West into all of this and it can causes more issues be that due to humanitarian, political and strategic goals associated with the West assisting such states. You arm one group of people to fight oppression and before you know it the very same people are armed and don't want the west around, back to square one again.

Democracy would be great for a number of these countries if it was that simple to implement and retain however due to destabilising factors associated with the regions in terms of religion, money and resources you are not going to get the perfect Utopia in that part of the world anytime soon and especially not within 50 years.

[toad]

...to say that they have a God given right to that land is absurd and intellectually questionable at best.

You nailed that one on the head!

My sympathies for Gaza ended the second they voted to support Hamas. Hamas is at war with Israel, it is one of their core reasons of existences. They fire missiles and run suicide raids all the time. Do I feel bad about the people caught up in the fray, sure. But conversely it's a war they choose. I would have taken a different approach but I understand the decision. The problem I have with them is how they go about it. They lob home made missiles into Israel then cry foul when the house they come from gets flattened. Or the boat that was sent awhile back to highlight the blockade. It was such a fantastic idea right up till when they got boarded. What kind of moron attacks an armed soldier with a club then cries foul when they get their tail shot off. But that type of stuff is typical of the Palestinian conflict. There are multiple ways to conflict resolution, war is just one of them. But if you choose war don't come crying to me when the big dog stomps on you. If they would just start reading off Gandhi's playbook they would win. I mean damn, homes came be rebuilt, fields replanted, insults ignored, and loud sounds tolerated. But death is forever. Don't get me wrong the Palestinian's have solid complaints and I fully understand them. They just really really suck at dispute resolution. You can't have it both ways.

I am sorry you lost friends over there, and I pray that the two going now stay safe. Maybe they will bring a little sanity to the situation. It takes a special person to enter a active war zone to help people out.

The US foreign polices from the 60s- early 90s has been one big read on US arrogance. We won the cold war and are now having to do clean up from it. As for our current propping up of dictators that is slightly complicated. Bush drew a line in the sand post 9-11 and some of them decided to side with us. Even Gaddafi was coming around. I haven't seen any signs of the US propping up dictators currently slaughtering their people. The Obama haters would have a field day with that one. Also Mubarak didn't slaughter his people and Obama did eventually asked for him to step down. Should he have asked earlier, later, or never is a argument for academia. Considering how bad we suck at foreign relations I am glad he waited.

Popular nonviolent struggle is the path, and I hope in 50 years dictatorships will be a foreign concept to my grandchildren. It is funny, I mused with a friend of mine how all the major repressive regimes have the words republic or democratic in their titles.

[Matt-Chicago]

Toad - you don't see us supporting Bahrain or Yemen?
The case of Libya is exactly what I was talking about. Qaddafi has murdered hundreds of thousands of people all over Africa, yet that's ok if he does our bidding.

Kren - I understand what you're saying, the thing is in many cases all we had to do to support democracy was get out of the way, and instead we did the opposite. I keep saying "we" when I mean Americans, so you're actually off the hook for a lot since decolonization :)

[MATTHEW'S_DAD]

The facts of the er are we have supported dictatorship over democracy, time and time and time again. Why? Because dictatorships are more reliable, they can be coaxed into making the "right" decisions which will benefit the strategic interests of the west. Democracy can be much more messy, they might not always do the "right" thing, and therefore all over the world, especially Latin America, Asia, and the middle east - we have worked hard, spent trillions, and killed millions to try to prevent democracy.

So in a sense, Kren and Burzeker are right.

[Duel of Fates]

I kind of noticed that MC is talking in circles. Your logic eludes me as far as your arguments go. You gripe about US involvement with Iraq and Afghanistan. But then you lament that we do nothing in Bahrain and Yemen. And why we are in Libya is beyond me. For a peace activist, I would think you would be out marching against Obama for getting us into another war that isn't even approved by congress.

I am also curious as to why the Radical Left is cozying up with Hamas? Bizarro world indeed.

[Matt-Chicago]

I kind of noticed that MC is talking in circles. Your logic illudes me as far as your arguments go. You gripe about US involvement with Iraq and Afghanistan. But then you lament that we do nothing in Bahrain and Yemen. And why we are in Libya is beyond me. For a peace activist, I would think you would be out marching against Obama for getting us into another war that isn't even approved by congress.

I am also curious as to why the Radical Left is cozying up with Hamas? Bizarro world indeed.

I think you misunderstand me Duel - I'm not complaining that we're doing nothing in places like Bahrain and Yemen, I'm complaining because we are actively supporting the dictators there. I'm not exactly isolationist, but I would much prefer we do nothing than actively arm, fund, and support dictators.

I don't see anyone "cozying" up to Hamas, and I've been a Palestine solidarity activist for a long, long time. Most people I know and work with don't like Hamas or the PA (Palestinian Authority). We see people who have suffered decades of occupation, displacement, human rights abuses, etc - and work to end it.

[Duel of Fates]

Actually MC, I think I understand you all too well.

Your a self admitted radical leftist, prone to protesting, with ties to Palistinians for the last 20 years or so? You have two "friends" boarding the "Audacity of Hope" or one of the other ships that is planning on running the Israeli blockade in hopes of provoking another violent response from Israel while claiming all along that they are "humanitarians", to help the poor people of Gaza. I would also conclude that saying you dislike the military wing of Hamas does not mean you do not support Hamas. I guess I understand just what you have told us. I like to take people at their word, and buddy your word scares the living shiite out of me.


Have fun with your Arab Spring pal. Your rosy outlook on the next 50 years with no more dictators in the Middle East is a pipe dream. A lot of people are gonna die on both sides. Maybe you, Bernadine Dohrn, and Bill Ayers can sleep at night with that kind of blood on your hands. Or maybe you try not to think about it. But please, stop pissing on these guys in the forum and telling them it's just rainin'.

[toad]

Toad - you don't see us supporting Bahrain or Yemen?
The case of Libya is exactly what I was talking about. Qaddafi has murdered hundreds of thousands of people all over Africa, yet that's ok if he does our bidding.

No I don't see us actively supporting Bahrain or Yemen, and we have bombed and are bombing Libya. There is a distinctual difference between actively supporting someone and being a good neighbor. Good, bad, or otherwise the people of those countries choose the regimes they live in. While I fundamentally don't agree with their decision it's not our place in the world to fix things. Yet on the flip side it is important we maintain some type of decorum with those countries. It is easier to effect change standing in their living room than it is from the curb.

Again I feel for the Palestinian people, they have legitimate and solid complaints. But don't come crying to me about being terrorized while strapping bombs to children's chests. I don't care if someone else is doing the deed. Just being complicit in the action is enough for damnation. Therein lies the heart of the situation. One of Hamas' core beliefs is the analyzation of another culture. That in of itself is enough for condemnation. No amount of good you do in this world will ever wash that stain from you hands. Yet the Palestinian people chose them. Hence why I stopped caring. Now I will give a head nod to the PA, they seem to be turning over a new leaf. I also must give props to Hamas' PR machine. The majority of the Muslim community have no clue how bad Hamas is. They only see the community work they do. In IMHO Hamas is the definition of evil.

Lastly DF, that was a brutal post, but pissin rain is always funny. , Oh and Obama is going to get stomped on for not talking to Congress about Libya. Bombing Libya was the right thing to do but you still have go through the motions.

[Corpse]

On a lighter note...


Awesome movie.