The rich are selfish, antisocial unaware a-holes

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Re: The rich are selfish, antisocial unaware a-holes

Postby WGO-Jango » Thu Aug 11, 2011 6:09 pm

Matt-Chicago wrote:Psychologist and social scientist Dacher Keltner says the rich really are different, and not in a good way: Their life experience makes them less empathetic, less altruistic, and generally more selfish.

In fact, he says, the philosophical battle over economics, taxes, debt ceilings and defaults that are now roiling the stock market is partly rooted in an upper class "ideology of self-interest."

“We have now done 12 separate studies measuring empathy in every way imaginable, social behavior in every way, and some work on compassion and it’s the same story,” he said. “Lower class people just show more empathy, more prosocial behavior, more compassion, no matter how you look at it.”

In an academic version of a Depression-era Frank Capra movie, Keltner and co-authors of an article called “Social Class as Culture: The Convergence of Resources and Rank in the Social Realm,” published this week in the journal Current Directions in Psychological Science, argue that “upper-class rank perceptions trigger a focus away from the context toward the self….”

In other words, rich people are more likely to think about themselves. “They think that economic success and political outcomes, and personal outcomes, have to do with individual behavior, a good work ethic,” said Keltner, a professor of psychology at the University of California, Berkeley.

Because the rich gloss over the ways family connections, money and education helped, they come to denigrate the role of government and vigorously oppose taxes to fund it.

“I will quote from the Tea Party hero Ayn Rand: “‘It is the morality of altruism that men have to reject,’” he said.

Whether or not Keltner is right, there certainly is a “let them cake” vibe in the air. Last week The New York Times reported on booming sales of luxury goods, with stores keeping waiting lists for $9,000 coats and the former chairman of Saks saying, “If a designer shoe goes up from $800 to $860, who notices?”

According to Gallup, Americans earning more than $90,000 per year continued to increase their consumer spending in July while middle- and lower-income Americans remained stalled, even as the upper classes argue that they can’t pay any more taxes. Meanwhile, the gap between the wealthiest and the rest of us continues to grow wider, with over 80 percent of the nation’s financial wealth controlled by about 20 percent of the people.

Unlike the rich, lower class people have to depend on others for survival, Keltner argued. So they learn “prosocial behaviors.” They read people better, empathize more with others, and they give more to those in need.

That’s the moral of Capra movies like “You Can’t Take It With You,” in which a plutocrat comes to learn the value of community and family. But Keltner, author of the book “Born To Be Good: The Science of A Meaningful Life,” doesn’t rely on sentiment to make his case.

He points to his own research and that of others. For example, lower class subjects are better at deciphering the emotions of people in photographs than are rich people.

In video recordings of conversations, rich people are more likely to appear distracted, checking cell phones, doodling, avoiding eye contact, while low-income people make eye contact and nod their heads more frequently signaling engagement.

In one test, for example, Keltner and other colleagues had 115 people play the “dictator game,” a standard trial of economic behavior. “Dictators” were paired with an unseen partner, given ten “points” that represented money, and told they could share as many or as few of the points with the partner as they desired. Lower-class participants gave more even after controlling for gender, age or ethnicity.

Keltner has also studied vagus nerve activation. The vagus nerve helps the brain record and respond to emotional inputs. When subjects are exposed to pictures of starving children, for example, their vagus nerve typically becomes more active as measured by electrodes on their chests and a sensor band around their waists. In recent tests, yet to be published, Keltner has found that those from lower-class backgrounds have more intense activation.

Other studies from other researchers have not produced the clear-cut results Keltner uses to advance his argument. In surveys of charitable giving, some show that low-income people give more, but other studies show the opposite.

“The research regarding income and helping behaviors has always been little bit mixed,” explained Meredith McGinley, a professor of psychology at Pittsburgh’s Chatham University.

Then there is the problem of Tea Partiers’ own class position. While they are funded by the wealthy, many do not identify themselves as wealthy (though there is dispute on the real demographics). Still, a strong allegiance to the American Dream can lead even regular folks to overestimate their own self-reliance in the same way as rich people.

As behavioral economist Mark Wilhelm of Indiana University-Purdue University Indianapolis pointed out, most people could quickly tell you how much they paid in taxes last year but few could put a dollar amount on how they benefited from government by, say, driving on interstate highways, taking drugs gleaned from federally funded medical research, or using inventions created by people educated in public schools.

There is one interesting piece of evidence showing that many rich people may not be selfish as much as willfully clueless, and therefore unable to make the cognitive link between need and resources. Last year, research at Duke and Harvard universities showed that regardless of political affiliation or income, Americans tended to think wealth distribution ought to be more equal.

The problem? Rich people wrongly believed it already was.

Shut up Matt.
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Re: The rich are selfish, antisocial unaware a-holes

Postby toad » Thu Aug 11, 2011 6:17 pm

Jango<9thAC-Gen> wrote:Shut up Matt.

:whistling: I like your debate style, go for the jugular right from the get go. LOL :twisted:
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Re: The rich are selfish, antisocial unaware a-holes

Postby Richdog » Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:14 pm

So when an smart economic reason for sustainable wealth redistribution cannot be made, it is up to people like Keltner to distract us from the intrinsic moral issues and the common sense economic issues at stake in this debate by claiming that we should treat "the rich" with less respect than "the poor" because rich ppl are jerks and poor ppl are compassionate and superior. That the rich deserve to have more taxes because it will make them better people to be poorer and that the poor deserve to have more money given to them for nothing because they're nicer people. Here are some real numbers about who pays what taxes. The numbers are a couple years old, but the same trends continue:

This is the data for calendar year 2003 just released in October 2005 by the Internal Revenue Service. The share of total income taxes paid by the top 1% of wage earners rose to 34.27% from 33.71% in 2002. Their income share (not just wages) rose from 16.12% to 16.77%. However, their average tax rate actually dropped from 27.25% down to 24.31%

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*Data covers calendar year 2003, not fiscal year 2003
- and includes all income, not just wages, excluding Social Security

Think of it this way: less than 3-1/2 dollars out of every $100 paid in income taxes in the United States is paid by someone in the bottom 50% of wage earners. Are the top half millionaires? Noooo, more like "thousandaires." The top 50% were those individuals or couples filing jointly who earned $29,019 and up in 2003. (The top 1% earned $295,495-plus.) Americans who want to are continuing to improve their lives, and those who don't want to, aren't. Here are the wage earners in each category and the percentages they pay:
The top 1% pay over a third, 34.27% of all income taxes. (Up from 2003: 33.71%) The top 5% pay 54.36% of all income taxes (Up from 2002: 53.80%). The top 10% pay 65.84% (Up from 2002: 65.73%). The top 25% pay 83.88% (Down from 2002: 83.90%). The top 50% pay 96.54% (Up from 2002: 96.50%). The bottom 50%? They pay a paltry 3.46% of all income taxes (Down from 2002: 3.50%). The top 1% is paying nearly ten times the federal income taxes than the bottom 50%! And who earns what? The top 1% earns 16.77% of all income (2002: 16.12%). The top 5% earns 31.18% of all the income (2002: 30.55%). The top 10% earns 42.36% of all the income (2002: 41.77%); the top 25% earns 64.86% of all the income (2002: 64.37%) , and the top 50% earns 86.01% (2002: 85.77%) of all the income.

The bottom 50% is paying a tiny bit of the taxes, so you can't give them much of a tax cut by definition. Yet these are the people to whom the Democrats claim to want to give tax cuts. Remember this the next time you hear the "tax cuts for the rich" business. Understand that the so-called rich are about the only ones paying taxes anymore.

There is of course, the old line that all wealth is inherited. Not true. John Weicher, as a senior fellow at the Hudson Institute and a visiting scholar at the Federal Reserve Bank, wrote in his February 13, 1997 Washington Post Op-Ed, "Most of the rich have earned their wealth... Looking at the Fortune 400, quite a few even of the very richest people came from a standing start, while others inherited a small business and turned it into a giant corporation." What's happening here is not that "the rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer." The numbers prove it.
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Re: The rich are selfish, antisocial unaware a-holes

Postby ProfessorDreadNaught » Thu Aug 11, 2011 11:35 pm

Is the reason you didn't bother to site the author of the article that starts this thread because you are embarrassed to quote such an accomplished journalist? The correct attribution for the article MC plagiarizes is Brian Alexander of MSNBC's column "Sexploration" on MSNBC.com and author of the book "America Unzipped: In Search of Sex and Satisfaction." I took a few minutes to peruse his journalistic greatest hits and have come away feeling soiled by them. (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3035461/)

Please look at the source of the material used in this article and the agenda being pushed by the research contained in it. The author, Dacher Keltner is a devoted follower of Eastern Philosophy and the altruist religion. He graduated college with a B.A. in Theater Studies. He then did post graduate studies in sociology and finally got his doctorate in psychology. He is taking a mish-mash of different "-ologies" and combining them to try and promote the philosophies of altruism. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dacher_Keltner)

This guy is the Wesley Mooch of Ayn Rands fiction come true. As a founder and co-leader of the "Greater Good Science Center" he is a disciple of the altruist religion. This is a group who publishes and promotes articles like "Why Self-Compassion Trumps Self-Esteem" and "Global Consensus: Money Doesn't Bring Happiness" along with "Just One Thing: Pet the Lizard" and "All You Need is Love (and Meditation) and my personal favorite "Sex, George Clooney, and the Meaning of Life." (Don't you just LOVE government sponsored research!)

Regardless of the credentials of those who would peddle such tripe this topic spellbinds the misguided and needs to be debunked as the demagoguery it is.

The article author states:
According to Gallup, Americans earning more than $90,000 per year continued to increase their consumer spending in July while middle- and lower-income Americans remained stalled, even as the upper classes argue that they can’t pay any more taxes. Meanwhile, the gap between the wealthiest and the rest of us continues to grow wider, with over 80 percent of the nation’s financial wealth controlled by about 20 percent of the people.


Is it REALLY suppossed to be shameful to spend money that you have earned? That would be what the altruist would have you conclude. The writer even twisted some facts to engender more anger about the wealthy by stating that "the upper classes argue that they can’t pay any more taxes." The upper classes DON'T say they CAN'T pay any more taxes, they point out that it is morally WRONG to force them to especially considering the larger share of the burden they already shoulder. Those not morally corrupt can see the distinction between wanting someone with excess to give to the needy versus pointing a gun at someone and forcing them too.

High- net-worth households account for about two-thirds of all individual giving in the U.S., according to the Center on Philanthropy at Indiana University, which co-wrote a report on charitable giving with Bank of America.
High- net-worth households are difined as an income greater than $200,000 or a net worth of at least $1 million, excluding primary residences.

Additionally, the author uses other subtle techniques of the collective "we" when he says "Meanwhile, the gap between the wealthiest and the rest of us continues to grow wider..." Obvious mob control, agenda pushing.

Finally, the article ends with quotes from Mark Wilheim, economist and professor at IUPUI. Want to guess what he specializes in? (https://resources.oncourse.iu.edu/acces ... /index.htm) EXACTLY the same "prosocial" fields of study as Professor Kelter and was the former director of the Center on Philanthropy Panel Study. He says:

most people could quickly tell you how much they paid in taxes last year but few could put a dollar amount on how they benefited from government by, say, driving on interstate highways, taking drugs gleaned from federally funded medical research, or using inventions created by people educated in public schools.


If a person had to pay a once a year toll to drive on interstate highways, he could tell you what he paid. If he had to pay a one time fee per drug he used to pay for medical research he could tell you. And if school taxes were paid only once a year and not escrowed into his mortgage payment that same man could tell you about how much he paid for public schools to fail our children. The average man WON't know those things because the altruists don't Want him to know. If he did, he'd revolt! If you knew how much a gallon of gas would cost if all the hidden taxes were removed you'd cry. Some states have taxes (posted on the pumps) of around $.45/gallon. This does NOT include all the taxes passed on by the importers, refineries, transporters and retailers as the cost of doing business. The EPA has NUMEROUS taxes that are imposed on these groups causing the price at the pump to inflate. But because they impose the tax (fees) on the entire industry the price gets bumped only a little for each gallon sold.

The bottom line is the people who have written this article MC points to so proudly have an agenda. They want you to believe altruism is good, living for the good of society is virtuous and that the government is the grantor of all things worthwhile. They are wrong. They use demagoguery to subvert the meaning of words and to make them pejorative and crass. ( http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/selfishness.html ) They benefit from taking money from those who have it without consent and often without any return in value (Andres Serrano's use of Endowment for the Arts monies http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andres_Serrano )

The wealthy are Selfish. They are concerned with their own well being. That is how one becomes wealthy, by taking care of ones self and not waiting or hoping someone will do it for you.

They wealthy are anti-social. They are against what today's society is and is trying harder to become. Immoral and driven by looters.

The wealthy are NOT unaware a-holes. They are among the MOST aware, most principled and disciplined members of our society and also the most giving of total dollars whether taken from them by force in taxes or by charitable donation.

Fear the leaches disguised as the knowing and benevolent. Judge a man by the work he does and the contracts he keeps. Why would anyone denigrate someone who achieves by honest work and fair trade? Perhaps they can't live up to such a high standard and want to bring such men as low as they.
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Re: The rich are selfish, antisocial unaware a-holes

Postby WD-40 » Fri Aug 12, 2011 1:40 am

Duel of Fates wrote:Matt, there are a-holes in all walks of life. If you think the "rich" have this market cornered, your view is one sided and innacurate. How many "rich" donate money and resources to philanthropic endeavors? Are you including Bill Gates as one of these so called a-holes? Or any of these people?

http://online.barrons.com/article/SB125 ... rticle%3D1

You hate to make generalizations, stereotypes, or blanket accusations, but that is what you did in spades. Pretty sad.

So true...and I might add, that those 'born' with the Silver Spoon in the mouth, if left un-nurtured with treating others with respect, end up being a-holes (aka Paris Hilton). However, my daughters were raised with great values, and treat others with respect. Sudden wealth will not change them. They have been 'programmed' by me and the wife to be very good people. So this 'one-scientist' study is wraught with flaws. True here, false there. Humans are too dynamic, and upbringing and surroundings play a big part in their persona, no matter their income.
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Re: The rich are selfish, antisocial unaware a-holes

Postby [m'kay] » Fri Aug 12, 2011 4:47 am

This is stupid.



So, so stupid.
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Re: The rich are selfish, antisocial unaware a-holes

Postby Duel of Fates » Fri Aug 12, 2011 9:25 am

Nargotah wrote:This is stupid.



So, so stupid.

You make an interesting and thought provoking argument . . . NOT!
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Re: The rich are selfish, antisocial unaware a-holes

Postby [m'kay] » Fri Aug 12, 2011 9:32 am

Duel of Fates wrote:
Nargotah wrote:This is stupid.



So, so stupid.

You make an interesting and thought provoking argument . . . NOT!



Hey man, i'm arguing for YOUR side this time.
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Re: The rich are selfish, antisocial unaware a-holes

Postby Matt-Chicago » Sun Aug 14, 2011 6:39 am

Richdog:
The wealthy and powerful and the corporations, banks, businesses, lobbyists, and think tanks they own and control come up with those numbers you listed, using every trick in the book to make data appear how they want it to. I'm sure you'd accuse me or some of my sources of the same thing, so instead of getting lost in the pissing contest like taxes - where poor people still pay a high percentage of their income in taxes which may not be federal income taxes, but payroll taxes, sales taxes, etc - why don't we discuss more the big picture.

Over the past 30 years, we've seen a major concentration of wealth in the US and to a lesser extent across the world.
The wealthy have seen their incomes skyrocket while everyone else has seen their pay stagnant and declining, even though workers have made significant advances in productivity. How has that happened?

People try to argue it's all just natural, it's "the market" nobody is controlling it - which is a load of BS.
Very specific policies have been thought up and implemented by the people who have the wealth and power to give themselves more wealth and power - at the expense of the poor, working people, the environment, and society itself.

Forty years ago, an American with a high school diploma could earn enough to purchase his house, a car, food, medical care, raise kids, and retire comfortably. That came about through generations of labor struggle during which time nobody was prevented from getting rich. Most people held their jobs for decades with a great amount of stability.
Corporate America set upon undoing that situation, making labor cheaper, less secure, offering less benefits, getting tax loopholes for themselves, tax breaks for the ways many wealthy make money such as capital gains, deregulation, and overall just socializing the costs of doing business while privatizing the profits.

Our society subsidizes business and the wealthy an order of magnitude beyond what's done for the poor and working class. Through various government agencies and a revolving door between government and industry/financial institutions, hundreds of billions are spent every year through the Pentagon, Intel agencies, NIH, and dozens of other agencies - which finance much of the cutting edge technology and medical advancements.

Every business can pit every state of the union and country of the world against each other for what are becoming crappier and crappier jobs. That's their job right, maximize profits to the extent allowed by law and then some. So like where I live, Chicago gave I can't remember how many tens of millions of dollars to Boeing to move their corporate headquarters to Chicago - which includes allowing them to not pay taxes, get the land for free, etc - and this is a very common arrangement.

Another part of the equation is the costs which society are forced to eat while the profits are privatized, things like pollution, chemical dumping, etc - which kill thousands of Americans each year, cause things like asthma and cancer, devastate the environment, foul streams and aquifers, etc - yet the people who made all the money don't have to pay those consequences.

Then we get to all the tax breaks, loopholes, accounting tricks, offshoring, 10,000 corporations sharing a 100 sqaure foot office in the Cayman Islands - to get out of paying what government and society has deemed their fair share.

The people who make the most don't make most of their money from wages. They make it from stock options, capital gains, insurance, real estate, and various other types of speculation which are taxed at a much lower rate and don't go into the nice numbers you quoted above for who pays what, on the very specific kind of tax, federal income tax.


I feel obligated to post a chart so here you go, but keep in mind this has become even more lopsided after the 2008 collapse:
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Re: The rich are selfish, antisocial unaware a-holes

Postby Duel of Fates » Mon Aug 15, 2011 5:34 am

Matt-Chicago wrote:Richdog:
The wealthy and powerful and the corporations, banks, businesses, lobbyists, and think tanks they own and control come up with those numbers you listed, using every trick in the book to make data appear how they want it to. Like George Soros. :whistling: I'm sure you'd accuse me or some of my sources of the same thing, so instead of getting lost in the pissing contest like taxes - where poor people still pay a high percentage of their income in taxes which may not be federal income taxes, but payroll taxes, sales taxes, etc - why don't we discuss more the big picture.In other words, no facts, but I will tell you what is what.

Over the past 30 years, we've seen a major concentration of wealth in the US and to a lesser extent across the world.
The wealthy have seen their incomes skyrocket while everyone else has seen their pay stagnant and declining, even though workers have made significant advances in productivity. How has that happened? Well obviously it has been a conspiracy by the rich. You know, its kind of funny, but you cannot get a hundred people into a room to agree on anything, yet you would have us believe that all of the rich in the entire world, are working solely to keep all citizens of every nation poor?

People try to argue it's all just natural, it's "the market" nobody is controlling it - which is a load of BS.Economics without political bias is a [female dog], but it is natural until government intervention and interference.
Very specific policies have been thought up and implemented by the people who have the wealth and power to give themselves more wealth and power - at the expense of the poor, working people, the environment, and society itself.No way the Progressives were part of that over the last century?

Forty years ago, an American with a high school diploma could earn enough to purchase his house, a car, food, medical care, raise kids, and retire comfortably. That came about through generations of labor struggle during which time nobody was prevented from getting rich. Most people held their jobs for decades with a great amount of stability.
Corporate America set upon undoing that situation, making labor cheaper, less secure, offering less benefits, getting tax loopholes for themselves, tax breaks for the ways many wealthy make money such as capital gains, deregulation, and overall just socializing the costs of doing business while privatizing the profits.And the rise to power by Unions had nothing to do with raising the costs of anything?

Our society subsidizes business and the wealthy an order of magnitude beyond what's done for the poor and working class. Through various government agencies and a revolving door between government and industry/financial institutions, hundreds of billions are spent every year through the Pentagon, Intel agencies, NIH, and dozens of other agencies - which finance much of the cutting edge technology and medical advancements.Waste comes from both sides of the aisle my friend. If you and your buddies had your way, you would love to tax every business into the ground so that they have no profit, and the majority of the population could sit on their arses and reap the benefits of others? That is called socialism. As discussed earlier, socialism never works.

Every business can pit every state of the union and country of the world against each other for what are becoming crappier and crappier jobs. Another conspiracy of the rich? That's their job right, maximize profits to the extent allowed by law and then some. They aint in business to lose money. That would be the government's bailiwick. So like where I live, Chicago gave I can't remember how many tens of millions of dollars to Boeing to move their corporate headquarters to Chicago - which includes allowing them to not pay taxes, get the land for free, etc - and this is a very common arrangement. Wow, even after Illinois raised the tax rates on businesses? Wonder what you would say when all the corps and businesses tell Illinois to screw their taxes and leave to make money in other states that are a little more business friendly, like say Texas? You would be [female dog] about all the unemployment and how the rich put those poor people there. Then you would have your unwashed masses ready for revolution?

Another part of the equation is the costs which society are forced to eat while the profits are privatized, things like pollution, chemical dumping, etc - which kill thousands of Americans each year, cause things like asthma and cancer, devastate the environment, foul streams and aquifers, etc - yet the people who made all the money don't have to pay those consequences. That is why we have laws. If a company comes into my neighborhood and pollutes the land, I can sue them. You are also illustrating the classic argument against corrupt politicians on the local, state, and federal levels who get kickbacks to allow this kind of thing to occur. Instead of [female dog] about the business owners who have to play this game, why not go after the politicians at all levels who receive moneys from corporations because they set up the system? Again, bipartisan. Greed on both sides of the aisle there.

Then we get to all the tax breaks, loopholes, accounting tricks, offshoring, 10,000 corporations sharing a 100 sqaure foot office in the Cayman Islands - to get out of paying what government and society has deemed their fair share. Fight for a Tax Reform. Start throwing the bums out of office who we elected in, that stand in the way of a fair Tax Reform. Again, you blame the wealthy for the way the system is set up, when you should be looking at the career politicians who benefit and get kickbacks to keep the system the same.

The people who make the most don't make most of their money from wages. They make it from stock options, capital gains, insurance, real estate, and various other types of speculation which are taxed at a much lower rate and don't go into the nice numbers you quoted above for who pays what, on the very specific kind of tax, federal income tax. It's called investing. It keeps businesses open, corporations running, and employing people. It is also a risk that the investor takes with his or her money. If the business tanks, they lose. If they make money on the deal, they reinvest in other companies they think are sound. Ask George Soros, he does it all the time.


I feel obligated to post a chart so here you go, but keep in mind this has become even more lopsided after the 2008 collapse:No chart? No comment. :roll:
Image



I am not sure what you intend to prove with your post, other than the fact that you really hate "rich" people. We got it. You don't like capitalism. You love socialism. We got it.

Just reading some of your posts lately reminds me of a young Austrian who had a problem with a certain segment of society. Blaming all the ills of the world on just one group of people, casting them in the light that they do not think like "normal" citizens. Pretty soon you will be calling them animals? Parasites? Curious isn't it?
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