Ron Paul: Healthcare, Military Spending And The Debt Crisis

[Heatmaster78]

You know...it boils down to this...in 100 years, none of this will er to any of us.

You know that's quite a good point...

[(SWGO)Kren]

Well while your at it please tell me what you believe in, religion, evolution, politcs?
Since i'm still gathering the finishing touches to the next flame thread this would be interesting for it.

Well,I believe in the sweet spot, soft-core pornography, opening your presents Christmas morning rather than Christmas Eve and I believe in long, slow, deep, soft, wet kisses that last three days

Look if you and leggz want to keep the undying flame alive then get a room but keep that crap with ur gamerz pals and please believe in pulling your head out of your arse for a least five minutes to stop urself from getting dizzy from sniffing that encyclopaedia print. I'm not sure why Kevin Costner get's you so excited btw but if that floats your boat then each to their own.

[ProfessorDreadNaught]

Well while your at it please tell me what you believe in, religion, evolution, politcs?
Since i'm still gathering the finishing touches to the next flame thread this would be interesting for it.

Well,I believe in the sweet spot, soft-core pornography, opening your presents Christmas morning rather than Christmas Eve and I believe in long, slow, deep, soft, wet kisses that last three days

Look if you and leggz want to keep the undying flame alive then get a room but keep that crap with ur gamerz pals and please believe in pulling your head out of your arse for a least five minutes to stop urself from getting dizzy from sniffing that encyclopaedia print. I'm not sure why Kevin Costner get's you so excited btw but if that floats your boat then each to their own.

Ah the European disdain for the great American pastime. How absolutely gauche. MT asked a ridiculous question and so I shot back with a fairly famous quote in response. The link is to help those who don't get it (which obviously you don't). Your homo-erotic imagination stirred by a simple video clip of iconic 80's comedy is quite odd though. Are you sure you aren't just projecting when you reference Neo-Nazis in your own posts?

[Commander Sparrow]

[(SWGO)Minas_Thirith]

MT asked a ridiculous question and so I shot back with a fairly famous quote in response.

A ridiculous question?

Also, I have some training in persuasive speaking and I recognize that you've been indoctrinated with certain beliefs. I was taught (rightly so) that beliefs are difficult to alter using logical means. Increasingly so, the longer those beliefs have been held. It usually requires a traumatic or shocking emotional experience to alter a personally held belief.

Here your saying you have some "expirience" with persuasive speaking yet you cannot alter believes so easely
A little back you said that due to "the enviroment" we grew up in it's too late for us to change our beliefs and in your point of view our beliefs are wrong.
So is it a ridiculous question to ask YOU what you believe in? or is it that you don't longer know what you believe in? i honestly don't think it's a ridiculous question, especially with your previos comments towards what other believe in.

Just saying

using logical means

Up till now i haven't found your posts very logical, and of course now you can say "it's because it's already too late for you" well then i guess all of the world besides you are doomed to stupidity.(but if everyone is stupid noone is )

MT

[Yanoda]

I recognize that you've been indoctrinated with certain beliefs.

How do you know that you haven't been indoctrinated yourself? You claim one set of ideas/systems is better/superior to others.
Isn't that a form of indoctrination by thinking in absolutes?
Capitalism, Socialism, Communism and other economic systems each have their advantages and disadvantages. Implementing a pure form of economic system never worked in the course of human history, let it be Capitalism, Socialism or Communism. Some people may prefer one system while others prefer the other based on their views and culture. The same goes for political systems.

You may disagree on what others believe, but that does not mean your ideals are necessarily superior to others.

MT asked a sensible question, there was no reason to be a [Richard] about it.

Cheers

Yanoda

[(SWGO)Kren]

So far what I have seen from your Dread seems to imply that nobody else’s views are right, other people’s ideas and experiences of their own systems fall short of the mark when compared to your own. I see systems working and failing in other countries I'll comment on that. MT is not asking stupid questions it is you who are being rude to him in your answers and others either indirectly or directly.

I (We?) don't ignore suffering. I'll bet I have given MUCH more to charitable organizations (money/time) than almost anyone else who has posted.

See there you go again assuming that nobody can match or do more than you even when it comes to charity work, you're ego takes a leap in the air. Again you assume nobody else can achieve what you have done. I did not think charity was a competition to score points against each other and you did that to help out. Any contribution is valuable and just because someone has not invested as much as the next, does that make them a bad person or any less charitable?

MT, there is hope for you still. The older European responders, eh...not so much. They've been indoctrinated a little too long. You answered the question correctly. What was missing from your answer was the shame and longing for restraint.

See, your arrogance towards others knows no bounds, the older europeans have no hope and MT perhaps does. You have very little idea of how the Health service operates over here and when this is being explained, you reply by indicating that MT's answer was missing shame, longing and restraint, what!! For the rest of us 'European responders', no-hope because we have different experiences. Comon get off your high-horse pal before you fall-off.

Now to answering responses:

If you see someone injured/sick that can be life threatening if nothing is done and you are fully aware of the circumstances. What will you do?

A. Would you help the individual to save his/her life, knowing you will likely not receive anything back in return?
Or
B. Would you leave the individual alone, knowing that you will not receive anything in return and knowing that he/she will die if the proper care is not provided?

Is it Moral to put a price tag on a human life?

Hopefully you realize that you asked two DIFFERENT questions and that both of your questions assume no one has taken away my free will in the er. To answer your first question, I have done both. I won't explain other than to say that is what war is. In civilian life my answer is A. Is it Moral to put a price tag on a human life?: no, but I don't play God, I figure he has his own plan I'm not qualified to administrate

You then decide to act like an arse (again) by attempting to be smart towards Yanoda. You're worldly experiences 'I have done both'. You don't play God but yet you've done both; taken and saved lives.

That is the indoctrination that our European brothers have received and much, too much our own children as well. To that end, they will obfuscate and ignore the fundamental immorality of what they propose and support and try to say anyone opposed is immoral for opposing it.

http://indoctrinationmovie.com/

You have one view of the perfect system and other systems have been around much longer and are still there, are they perfect, 'No', should then be changed then mostly likely but are they wrong, then I would say 'No', they are there to serve a purpose for the people.

"The American Way" and wish more Americans were brought up with and understood. We start with the premise that it is immoral to take anything from someone forcibly. The corollary to this statement is that it is immoral to receive something forcibly taken from another.

So all the street gangs, OMG's etc are simply a product of the government? These groups exist very much outside the law and the government and have no qualm about taking from others. They choose not to believe what you posted in your statement. Their actions are immoral but yet they exist and are growing in size daily.

This is why those of our political mindset rarely cut defense, fire, and police budgets and why raising taxes to fund those items is so much easier than to build a park or a homeless shelter. We don't use homeless shelters and too often don't get to use the park either.

You guys don't use homeless shelters and rarely get to use parks?

National Parks System Quick Facts

- The first National Park established, Yellowstone in 1872
- Largest NP, Wrangell-St. Elias NP and Preserve, Alaska
- Smallest Site, The Thaddeus Kosciuszko N. Memorial
- Number of acres of NPS stewardship land, 79 Million
- Percent of the U.S. in the National Park System, 3.6
- Number of acres managed by the NPS, 84.6Million
- Largest NP in contiguous 48, Death Valley, 3.3M Acres
- 58 National Parks, 74 National Monuments
- Number of National Park System Units, 391
- 3,565 Miles of US National Scenic Trails
- 4 National Parkways managed by the NPS
- 12,250 Miles of Unpaved Trails

So there is no access to Parks in the USA, mm, perhaps you need more?

Homeless shelters in the USA: http://www.homelessshelterdirectory.org/

Again I see many homeless shelters across your country when compared to other countries across the world and you might be surprised how organised and structured it is in the USA.

Through the years our government has grown in response to new challenges and realities. Slavery ended and equal citizenship needed to be established/protected

Afro Americans were still fighting for their rights and equal citizenship during the 1950's to the 60's so don't indicate that because slavery ended all was well, clearly prominent figures like Malcolm X, Rosa Parks, Martin Luther King, Jr. got this turned around and brought this issue to the forefront.

http://www.onedayu.com/courses/Louis+Ma ... and+legend
http://www.history.com/topics/emancipat ... atest-myth

MT asked a ridiculous question and so I shot back with a fairly famous quote in response.

My disdain for the American pastime, how so, because you assume I do not like the film? I mean what reference did it have to the rest of the post, nothing except it was associated with a baseball and if you are implying that the sentence sums up the American way or life and is a good reply for MT then that is really sad. You choose to take a quote from a 1980's baseball film to sum-up what you believe and act towards MT like an idiot.

You appear to attack other's views or attempt to belittle them but when anyone replies tell you to pull your head out of your arse you suddenly state that person is attacking the great American pastime, nice try to rally support but it was a very weak attempt. As to erotic imagination being stirred by a video clip, the very nature of the content relates to that subject, adding you and leggz into that wasn't anything special or stretch of the imagination but if you want to read something more into that then feel free.

Most of the stuff that I see coming from you is that 'I did this and that' and other systems or views would not work in your world and are less important or not worth considering because they do not meet your ideals.

[ProfessorDreadNaught]

So much to respond to. Kren's comment seems to sum up and I hope by addressing this quote many of the other misunderstandings will be clear as well.

So far what I have seen from your Dread seems to imply that nobody else’s views are right, other people’s ideas and experiences of their own systems fall short of the mark when compared to your own. I see systems working and failing in other countries I'll comment on that. MT is not asking stupid questions it is you who are being rude to him in your answers and others either indirectly or directly.

I'll start with why MT's question was indeed ridiculous and to me deserved a flippant response. He asked what I believe so that he can start new flame threads to presumably attack my beliefs.

I don't think that nobody else's views are right but my own. There are several posts that agree with me, but more to the point I simply believe that too many people believe they have a basic right to health care. I believe that view is prominent in countries where there is history of government sponsored health care. I believe that primary education systems around the world are designed to indoctrinate it's people to integrate and function in their society. To that end I'm sure that you were indoctrinated with certain beliefs about your countries political system the same as I was. When I said there "was no hope," I was expressing the notion that there is little hope I would be able to change the minds of our older European friends and even our younger ones like MT.

I recognize I have been indoctrinated to believe and support my countries political system. Please recognize that what I am talking about is a concepts of governance. NOT an economic model. This is not about capitalism or socialism. It is a concept called "limited government." It is about the definition of "individual basic rights" and the proper role of government to support and protect them. I believe our founding documents spelled out the ideal system for supporting and protecting our individual basic rights and that through the generations it has been subverted.

I posted a moral question to illustrate one of the fundamental principles I and others like me understand and try to live by. Kren and Yanoda, you chose to ignore my question and pose one designed to make me look like a monster if I didn't answer in your favor. I'm not being an arrogant arse for responding to the question in a way that doesn't spring the trap such a rhetorical device was designed for. I post my bona fides such as whether such a theoretical question has real life implications and then answer the hypothetical anyway.

When I describe my charitable giving it is not to score points, but hopefully to underscore a point that I believe is true. More wealthy individuals donate more to charity than others who despise them for having more in the first place. I believe that social programs funded and operated by TRUE altruism is better than government funded robbery. I have a knowledge of this having spent money and time both in that pursuit.

The bottom line is that my country has important issues facing it. One of those issues is Health Care and the upcoming implementation of universal health care in the form of mandatory health insurance for all. Among other things, this issue has given rise to a movement which at its core is about returning to a paradigm of limited government in the United States. We have a major national election which includes all of the lower house of Congress and a third of the upper and includes the chief executive (President of the United States). I want more Americans to understand the tenets of "limited government" as a concept and what is possible and practical in its application. I want them to find candidates who will ALSO understand these fundamentals and be true to its spirit in practice. My first step is to disillusion some folks about what they ACTUALLY have a right to versus what is bestowed upon them as quid pro quo for votes. If my demonstration of the immorality of a system you believe in is hurtful to you in some way, I apologize for the pain I have caused. You could of course skip threads on American politics and leave them to the Americans.

[Mandalore]

ur mums got helthc4re1!111one

[(SWGO)Kren]

I believe our founding documents spelled out the ideal system for supporting and protecting our individual basic rights and that through the generations it has been subverted.

So how is the average American to change this, let's keep it related to Health Care to start with? I've already stated where waste is created in this thread; (Administrative goals, no consistent approach, variance in terms of quality, admissions process etc.). These areas within Healthcare will drain the money being pumped into it unless they are analysed. Streamline processes. If you then expand outside Healthcare then there is the obvious issue about Junk food, smoking, alcohol, drug abuse as other areas that contribute to the Healthcare system failing due to external pressures associated with these areas. There is no magic wand to wave but there are areas that in-roads can be made.

Kren and Yanoda, you chose to ignore my question and pose one designed to make me look like a monster if I didn't answer in your favor.

Make you look like a monster, erm no but you have done quite well yourself without much assistance from anyone else in being rude towards others when there was no need. If you then expect people to appreciate this then you are sadly mistaken. People were discussing their experiences and the history associated with their country, don't treat them like crap.

When I describe my charitable giving it is not to score points, but hopefully to underscore a point that I believe is true. More wealthy individuals donate more to charity than others who despise them for having more in the first place.

Yeah that's not kind of what you came out with the first time around now is it?

but more to the point I simply believe that too many people believe they have a basic right to health care. I believe that view is prominent in countries where there is history of government sponsored health care.

Your current health care system is different from ours. In the UK the NHS was established July 5 1948 out of a long-held ideal that good healthcare should be available to all, regardless of wealth. This system has developed from this date. As I have indicated it is not perfect but it benefits the population and after 60+ years of developing this there is still areas for vast improvement however the benefits that the general public receive out way the negatives by a considerable proportion.

If my demonstration of the immorality of a system you believe in is hurtful to you in some way, I apologize for the pain I have caused. You could of course skip threads on American politics and leave them to the Americans.

See there you go again acting like a clown and there was no need. If you want threads to be Americans replies only then state this as most threads I see appearing are open to all.

I am quite open to debate subjects but keep it on track rather having a personal dig people otherwise you'll simply get this coming back to you.