Winter..?

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Re: Winter..?

Postby BurzaP » Mon Jan 09, 2012 5:16 pm

I'm a Pole, glad to hear you have found no difference between me or other English speaking (or it's only my wishful thinking xD)

Yanoda wrote:Using electric vs fuel cars is a very complex situation that does not only focus on the emissions. It involves the energy and resource balance, human health, economic factors and social mindsets.
Electric cars would (in the long run) reduce emissions (O3, NOx, CO2, SOx etc.) within cities/high traffic areas. This would reduce health effects on Humans and reduce ecological impact on the environment. Use of electric cars would also negate the need to import large amounts of Oil if the Energy sector is able to accommodate the transition (construction of renewable energy and Nuclear Power Plants if needed). Using coal plants would negate the emissions reductions of electric cars for obvious reasons. The problem with the electric cars would be an increase in costs (both the consumer and producer), making it a bit difficult selling it commercially for the average individual. There is also the problem with rare resources that are required to produce high capacity batteries for the cars. There is also the need to construct the infrastructure to support the use of electric cars.


So, first, maybe, maybe it would reduce the impact on our environment but we have to remember there are millions of cars from the last 50 years on our roads and now it's cheaper and more environmentally-friendly to buy one for 2k bucks than buy a car with zero emission which production would take more resources and, in overall, costs of production + gases emitted during the process would make the whole thing not worth a problem. Plus, even if someone would buy a Prius or other [poo] it would make no difference in world of cars for fuel. In addition, importers of Oil would do anything to stop the expansion of cars without emission. But you mentioned about that problems so never mind. I'm not also quite sure what you mean by the explanation "if the Energy sector is able to accommodate the transition" [just after I translated it I still can't get what you mean, not that I'm moron but there are several ways of translating something like that].
The last but not the least thing you haven't written about is that what the cars would save while driving( I mean CO2) would be produced do give them energy to drive. So, as it follows - really doesn't matter what you drive.

Yanoda wrote: My previous post was about solar minimum, where many opponents of Anthropogenic Climate Change claim has a larger effect on the Climate than Human/Anthropogenic Emissions have on the Climate.

Haven't heard of that, I know that solar flares may affect us in some way but I guess it's not only about them.

Yanoda wrote:The current Climate Change many Climatologists and Environmentalists are talking about is the Climate (also Environment) Change from human actions (Anthropogenic). The rate of Species extinction today has exceeded (many say by a factor of a 100) the previous major extinction rates (based on geologic history ect.) in Earth's History. Current rates could achieve the rate of the mass extinction that occurred 65 million years ago. That is what has the scientists alarmed. There is also the problem with lack of diversity that can cause several problems within ecosystems (this will also affect Humans). Environmentalism isn't only about 'saving' the Planet, but preserving resources, natural habitats and quality of life for future generations.


Yeah, the best examples are: In UK they have forbidden to kill foxes so they reproduces without any brakes, some time ago in Yellow Stone they wanted a peace so they eliminated wolfs (and then there were too many mooses) then they got the had done a wrong thing but still... some behaviors of people are strange.

Yanoda wrote:The major problem in the argument with Mr. Carlin is that he assumes that the extinctions we have today are natural, it's not. His statement that 25 species die every day regardless of human behavior is misleading. Scientists say that human activity cause about 50,000 species to disappear/go extinct every year, that is 137 species per day, vastly more than what Mr. Carlin states. Already about 1.5 minutes into the video, Mr. Carlin makes a lot of baseless assumptions. Sure, we [m'kay] ourselves and the planet can recover (albeit very slow, took over 30 million years for the planet to fully recover from the extinction 65 million years ago). But, if we [m'kay] the planet, we get [m'kay] regardless. So trying to reduce our effect on the environment and the 'planet' would enable us to live on said planet a bit more comfortable and longer than if we didn't do [poo]. I don't even need to go on with his rant about environmentalists. The amount of exploitation and emissions we have done over the course of 200 years is quite a feat compared to how long the same processes took in the past 4.5 Billion years of Earth's history. That is also a reason why Climatologists and Environmentalists are worried. He keeps talking about the Planet, but doesn't talk about the organisms that inhabit the planet. The organisms were the ones that had to endure the hardships of what Mr. Carlin lists the Earth has undergone. Quite a difference how omitting something small can change the perspective.


You may be right but we still find/discover new species, some of them restore and these that are gone, I don't know how important they were ( I know each one can have influence on the whole animal chains[or how to call it right]) but I don't think it's a great lost. In this 137 per, how many are really important, that may significantly change our life(even if we consider long lasting process of the change)? I'm not the spec but isn't there some exaggerating?
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Re: Winter..?

Postby 11_Panama_ » Mon Jan 09, 2012 5:52 pm

Yes it has been an unusual winter...even here in Wisconsin. We should of had at least 15 inches of snowfall by now....we've had less than an inch so far. It was weird to say the least that we didn't have a "white christmas" this year...it didn't feel right. Temperatures have been unseasonably warm here..never thought I would miss the snow, yet..I am. GO PACKERS!
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Re: Winter..?

Postby Yanoda » Mon Jan 09, 2012 6:22 pm

BurzaP wrote:I'm a Pole, glad to hear you have found no difference between me or other English speaking (or it's only my wishful thinking xD)

Your English is fine, even though there are some grammatical errors but everyone does it from time to time.
BurzaP wrote:So, first, maybe, maybe it would reduce the impact on our environment but we have to remember there are millions of cars from the last 50 years on our roads and now it's cheaper and more environmentally-friendly to buy one for 2k bucks than buy a car with zero emission which production would take more resources and, in overall, costs of production + gases emitted during the process would make the whole thing not worth a problem. Plus, even if someone would buy a Prius or other [poo] it would make no difference in world of cars for fuel. In addition, importers of Oil would do anything to stop the expansion of cars without emission. But you mentioned about that problems so never mind. I'm not also quite sure what you mean by the explanation "if the Energy sector is able to accommodate the transition" [just after I translated it I still can't get what you mean, not that I'm moron but there are several ways of translating something like that].
The last but not the least thing you haven't written about is that what the cars would save while driving( I mean CO2) would be produced do give them energy to drive. So, as it follows - really doesn't matter what you drive.

That is true Burza, I only provided an extreme case (with many aspects omitted) with the transition. A proper system needs to be developed to enable an economical, resource and environmentally sound transition. The best we can do now is find a balance.
By energy sector, I mean power plants that provide the electricity (Nuclear, Coal, Gas, Oil, Solar, Wind, Geothermal, Hydro power plants). They need to be able to provide the influx of the needed energy if such a transition to electric cars do occur. If they are not properly developed, the electric grid could receive problems (unwanted fluctuations) and eventually cause a blackout for the region (i.e. Northeast Blackout in 2003).
Generally it is more efficient for a Oil Power plant to produce the needed energy for electric cars compared to just oil (fuel) driven cars. If one would consider a coal plant, it would be another story as I mentioned in my previous post.
The best way (in my eyes) to enable a smooth transition is to develop/expand renewable energy (Solar, Wind, Geothermal & Hydro). They (Solar and Wind) tend to amortize the needed energy in production fairly quickly. In unit of emissions per Kwh, Solar and Wind are also very good (very low emissions) when you consider the emissions produced my the manufacturing. They do not produce emissions once they are constructed, only during the construction.

BurzaP wrote:Haven't heard of that, I know that solar flares may affect us in some way but I guess it's not only about them.

This video explains the exact process of the Solar minimum and talks about the Maunder minimum:
BurzaP wrote:Yeah, the best examples are: In UK they have forbidden to kill foxes so they reproduces without any brakes, some time ago in Yellow Stone they wanted a peace so they eliminated wolfs (and then there were too many mooses) then they got the had done a wrong thing but still... some behaviors of people are strange.

Exactly, Environmentalists (that try to address this problem) try to implement a balance between predator and prey. There is also the problem with invasive species (introduced by humans) that undermine the native ones.
BurzaP wrote:You may be right but we still find/discover new species, some of them restore and these that are gone, I don't know how important they were ( I know each one can have influence on the whole animal chains[or how to call it right]) but I don't think it's a great lost. In this 137 per, how many are really important, that may significantly change our life(even if we consider long lasting process of the change)? I'm not the spec but isn't there some exaggerating?

For every non-researched species that goes extinct, makes it more difficult in understanding how they interacted with the environment and how important they are. In terms of species, they do not only refer to animals but also plants and other organisms. Many plants have been found to have healing effects to certain diseases or help mitigate them. There are plenty more that could not have been discovered that could help us in fighting sicknesses and diseases, if they go extinct so does the potential medicine/knowledge that could have been gained.
There is also the factor about Biodiversity. It is generally thought that the more Biodiversity there is in an Ecosystem, the more healthier/resilient the ecosystem can be. With more biodiversity, organisms have more competition and more variance in their sources of food. If one part/organism goes extinct/disappears, the ecosystem can easily manage and adapt to it. But if the process is accelerated and increased in size, it can have detrimental effects on the ecosystem. Worse case scenario is an ecosystem/population collapse (it cannot maintain itself any longer).
Mono-culture plantations tend to be less resilient to large influences compared to multi-culture plantations. For example: We humans have concentrated ourselves on 6 major types of Bananas, there are estimated about a total of 50 different types of 'Musa' genus. If a disease were to occur that affected one or several of the 6 major bananas we use for consumption, it could cause severe problems for the economy and food supply. This case is nothing new as it already happened in previous decades and takes time to recover. This is something that directly affects us humans.

This may seem not as detailed but I hope it was understandable and one could get the gist of it.

Cheers

Yanoda
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Re: Winter..?

Postby Yanoda » Thu Jan 12, 2012 8:48 pm

Don't worry guys, maybe the weather will cool down a bit before spring really comes. Possibly even have a little snow in the north.

Cheers

Yanoda

Edit: since I was talking about finding new species on my last post: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/ ... t-7mm.html
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Re: Winter..?

Postby BurzaP » Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:48 pm

forgot I run a topic there, gimme a sec yanoda to remind myself what it was about xD
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Re: Winter..?

Postby Richdog » Fri Jan 13, 2012 10:05 pm

weren't we having this same conversation last year, only complaining about how it was so unusually cold and snowy? No single year is going to be average. Every year will be either above or below the curve, some more than others.
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Re: Winter..?

Postby Yanoda » Fri Jan 13, 2012 10:34 pm

BurzaP wrote:forgot I run a topic there, gimme a sec yanoda to remind myself what it was about xD

:lol: Take your time.
Richdog wrote:weren't we having this same conversation last year, only complaining about how it was so unusually cold and snowy? No single year is going to be average. Every year will be either above or below the curve, some more than others.

Exactly, it is amusing seeing/hearing people say "it's so cold outside, global warming is over. It's just a hoax!" or "OMG it's so warm compared to average, we're doomed!".
Climate is ever changing, there is no denying that. Though, one can take averages over many years to see how the Climate is developing (usually average of 30 years). What I can say is that the Climate can change in such a way that it can harm us. Temperatures being one of the major indicators how it is progressing. So far the temperature has been increasing since the last century with small dips but the general direction it has been going was up. It depends if one views the effects of higher temperatures as good or bad. Many Climatologists say that the general effects will be negative for us humans, though there can be some positive outcomes (i.e. shorter routes through the North Pole).
Right now, scientists are starting to forgo trying to reason with nations in reducing their emissions and instead try to find ways to offset the influx of gases that increase the greenhouse effect. We'll see how it will develop in the next years.

Cheers

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Re: Winter..?

Postby Duel of Fates » Sat Jan 14, 2012 2:26 am

Are you goobers still arguing this topic? Why can't you just enjoy the weather for what it is? Ever changing and sometimes unpredictable. The last two years we have had record snowfalls in my area. My poor snowblower was running on empty by the time the thaw came. "el niño" btw. Now this year it has been mild. "la nina", btw. Now it's cold and snowy. Thanx! I was kind of enjoying the warm weather.
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Re: Winter..?

Postby Heatmaster78 » Sat Jan 14, 2012 4:23 am

Duel of Fates wrote:Are you goobers still arguing this topic? Why can't you just enjoy the weather for what it is? Ever changing and sometimes unpredictable. The last two years we have had record snowfalls in my area. My poor snowblower was running on empty by the time the thaw came. "el niño" btw. Now this year it has been mild. "la nina", btw. Now it's cold and snowy. Thanx! I was kind of enjoying the warm weather.

I agree!

In Oregon it was 25 degrees this morning, pretty cold.
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Re: Winter..?

Postby BurzaP » Wed Jan 18, 2012 1:25 pm

I've read your post Yanoda, never too late. Yeah, I see lack of biodiversity might be a problem but... weaker species are eliminated by the nature itself to get the best one of them. Of course, it's a longlasting process but we can't really know if we "kill" species that are badly shaped or those who are better adapted. However, this better adapted would dominate the system quicker so it would be harder to eliminate them than the weaker ones, as it follows, it's more possible that we eliminate weakers, we're just helping mother nature. Stronger will survive.
ok, I'm only shooting but maybe there is a glimpse of sense but I agree we should watch out, to some point, of course.
Plust thanks for explanations to this solarminimum.
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