Why MT doesn't believe in this.

[haasd0gg]

If evolution was true it's amazing their isn't an entire race of half-way evolved people.

There are. You should meet leggz and his friends sometime.

[Yanoda]

n1 Hass!

Sorry Col. but evolution does not work like that as you assume. Review some studies concerning that (maybe some earlier posts too) since I don't want to repeat myself again.

Let's look at this from another point of view. Parents who are raising children, will teach them, not to hurt, others, obviously not to kill others. But what does that parent do to let's say an animal, or a evil person who is threatening to take the life of their child. The child is defenseless, tell me what you would do in that situation. You would do what you had to in order to protect your child, even to the point of taking the life of the aggressor if they persisted. Would you view that parent hypocritical?

Sorry, but this analogy cannot be compared with God. Since many (and you) seem to believe he was the creator of humans, that would technically mean that God is the parent (which several religions emphasize). With that in mind, God would then be considered an abusive, negligent and judgmental parent.
Abusive: Kills millions of people, punishes many more for minor things. For the good of the few he sees worthy? Not very caring.
Negligent: Leaves people to die, only shows itself to the supposedly 'few chosen' one and just wants everyone else to just have faith in God even if there is no evidence of its existence. Being such a perfect being, it created a lot of imperfect things in the world.
Judgmental: Since God doesn't indicate any existence of its being apart from a book that is ~4000 years old and has been modified countless times, it seems to enjoy punishing those that do not show faith in God. Punishes the entire human race due to an individual's single action.

Since you bring up the flood, I will use that example:
Well before the flood in the Garden of Eden, after Adam and Eve rebelled, god promised that his original purpose would be carried out. That being that righteous mankind would live forever on the earth in perfect and peaceful conditions. In Noah's days things were so bad and only Noah and his family were following Gods Laws and guidelines. They were threatened by the wicked people of that time and God was not going to allow that to happen.
But this was not just a casual killing of an entire generation of people. Remember that by Noah's day wicked demons had already come down to earth and had relations with humans, creating cruel wicked superhuman type men called Nephilim. At Genesis 6:3 God resolved to remove the corrupt system of things on earth, and he foretold he would do so in 120 years. He commissioned Noah to build the ark which was not a small job. in those 120 years Noah and his wife had 3 sons, who also grew up and got married themselves, in 120 years all the people could see what Noah was building, they knew why, and he definitely warned them of the coming flood. They were all given the opportunity to change and follow God. But they didn't and they suffered the consequences of that decision.

Do consider that my previous statements considered the hypothetical view that God existed. I see no definite evidence of such a being existing.
I think that's going too far in believing what the Bible tells. Is there proof there were demons? No. There is also no proof that a 'Great Flood' occurred. So an entire human race is punished even though it is logical to assume that several were not even evil/sinful. There is also the problem of being able to accommodate the ~ 1.5 million species we know today (it is likely that it is just a fraction of the actual amount) to fit inside the ark or being collected. Let alone feeding all the animals for several months...
So far, studies were unable to validate the claims of the Bible concerning the flood. Unless I see evidence (apart from the Bible) that can be verified, the concept of the flood is a myth to me (likely for others as well).
Most of your 'evidences' for your arguments came from the Bible, which is not the most reliable source. As I stated the book "A History of God: The 4,000-Year Quest of Judaism, Christianity and Islam" is widely accepted among top Biblical scholars, archaeologists, anthropologists and many more on the origin of Judaism, Islam and Christianity. It mentions that many stories inside the Bible originated from Polytheistic Gods/beliefs and were altered over the ages to the form we know now. Thus, the Bible cannot be used as a reliable source to validate one's arguments due to the high chance of being altered from its original form.

Cheers

Yanoda

Edit: This video summarizes the book I mentioned.
Edit #2: Here is the documentary based on the book. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 5399093528

[Hobo]

You dare question the way of the Lord?!

jk. I'd like to clarify a few things before starting though. First, using the bible to claim that something from the bible that could be true is completely reliable. If one was arguing a detail in a movie, you can't say it's not true because the movie is fiction. Saying things about the bible doesn't necessarily make it true in the real world, but it sure does in regards to the bible. The bible is the primary source of the flood, ain't it?

Evidence of the Flood(Maybe):http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/1999/11/22/proof-of-noahs-flood

Second, when one talks about the flood, it is possible it only happened in a certain section of the world. The people who were recording this might have assumed that the Middle East was the entire earth. That's also why there's diversity in humans today, they don't all look Arabic. The same way the Euros thought that Europe and Asia was the entire world.
Answers in bold.

Sorry, but this analogy cannot be compared with God. Since many (and you) seem to believe he was the creator of humans, that would technically mean that God is the parent (which several religions emphasize). With that in mind, God would then be considered an abusive, negligent and judgmental parent.
Abusive: Kills millions of people, punishes many more for minor things. For the good of the few he sees worthy? Not very caring.
God judges everyone. It is his task to punish those who sin. He is not the same as you, it is HIS task to judge people's lives, not yours. No, its not caring, but for God to make sure everyone is happy, even those vile, wicked people, this system would be broken. This is a little silly, but if the admins of SWGO were not to punish those who don't follow the rules (To an extent), it wouldn't work.

Genesis 6:5-6:8
5.) And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
6.) And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
7.) And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
8.) But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

What God says here is that men were wicked at heart, and he must judge them all accordingly. Only Noah was pure at heart.
Negligent: Leaves people to die, only shows itself to the supposedly 'few chosen' one and just wants everyone else to just have faith in God even if there is no evidence of its existence. Being such a perfect being, it created a lot of imperfect things in the world.

God must judge people, whether he likes it or not. He shows himself through several people who have been devoted to God very highly. The way of God has been proven to bring the prosperousness to civilizations. It creates unity.

Judgmental: Since God doesn't indicate any existence of its being apart from a book that is ~4000 years old and has been modified countless times, it seems to enjoy punishing those that do not show faith in God. Punishes the entire human race due to an individual's single action.

Having faith in God shows him that you are devoted to him. If God showed us proof that he existed,(such as landing on Earth and showing himself) there would be no faith left. God doesn't want that. He wants proof that we are devoted to him. And a single human's action? Who was this single individual? From the bible, God perceived men as being wicked during the flood.

Since you bring up the flood, I will use that example:
Well before the flood in the Garden of Eden, after Adam and Eve rebelled, god promised that his original purpose would be carried out. That being that righteous mankind would live forever on the earth in perfect and peaceful conditions. In Noah's days things were so bad and only Noah and his family were following Gods Laws and guidelines. They were threatened by the wicked people of that time and God was not going to allow that to happen.
But this was not just a casual killing of an entire generation of people. Remember that by Noah's day wicked demons had already come down to earth and had relations with humans, creating cruel wicked superhuman type men called Nephilim. At Genesis 6:3 God resolved to remove the corrupt system of things on earth, and he foretold he would do so in 120 years. He commissioned Noah to build the ark which was not a small job. in those 120 years Noah and his wife had 3 sons, who also grew up and got married themselves, in 120 years all the people could see what Noah was building, they knew why, and he definitely warned them of the coming flood. They were all given the opportunity to change and follow God. But they didn't and they suffered the consequences of that decision.

Do consider that my previous statements considered the hypothetical view that God existed. I see no definite evidence of such a being existing.
I think that's going too far in believing what the Bible tells. Is there proof there were demons? No. The demons part I disagree with, they were probably perceived as men who were especially evil.
There is also no proof that a 'Great Flood' occurred. So an entire human race is punished even though it is logical to assume that several were not even evil/sinful. Not the entire human race, just a fraction. Like I said little farther up, it was probably only a section of Earth.
There is also the problem of being able to accommodate the ~ 1.5 million species we know today (it is likely that it is just a fraction of the actual amount) to fit inside the ark or being collected. Let alone feeding all the animals for several months...Again, It was only a fraction. I don't really have a great answer for this, I can only assume that this story was modified somehow. Sorry. I'll ask my pastor about it on Sunday.
So far, studies were unable to validate the claims of the Bible concerning the flood. Unless I see evidence (apart from the Bible) that can be verified, the concept of the flood is a myth to me (likely for others as well).
Most of your 'evidences' for your arguments came from the Bible, which is not the most reliable source. As I stated the book "A History of God: The 4,000-Year Quest of Judaism, Christianity and Islam" is widely accepted among top Biblical scholars, archaeologists, anthropologists and many more on the origin of Judaism, Islam and Christianity. It mentions that many stories inside the Bible originated from Polytheistic Gods/beliefs and were altered over the ages to the form we know now. Thus, the Bible cannot be used as a reliable source to validate one's arguments due to the high chance of being altered from its original form.

Cheers

Yanoda

Heres another question I got, just throwing it out there. How did Jesus feed the 5000 with only 2 fish and 5 barley loaves o' bread?

[11_Panama_]

Fact is, as much as we can't prove HE is real, I haven't seen any facts that HE's not. Faith is all that HE asks for...why is that so hard? Put it this way....if I believe and accept HIM, I will have forever life, if I don't accept HIM, I will be dammed..I rather believe than not then. Why take a chance of eternal damnation? If there is no GOD, we just die and thats it....but believe..and he promises eternal life...I choose eternal life, and if Im an idiot that believes and I just die..with no Heaven..nothing lost..right?

[(SWGO)SirPepsi]

If evolution was true it's amazing their isn't an entire race of half-way evolved people.

I encourage you to research evolution. This claim was ridiculous, just as Mandalore's was, but nonetheless. Making an inane comeback is hardly necessary. Evolution does not work as a singular force that makes the exact same advancements over time, this is true. However, there ARE animals and creatures in different 'stages' of evolution. There is difference within homosapiens themselves. Scientists have discovered that Neanderthals had coexisted with humans for thousands of years. They had also INTERBRED.
http://www.ornl.gov/sci/techresources/Human_Genome/elsi/humanmigration.shtml http://www.nature.com/news/2010/100420/full/news.2010.194.html

In different parts of the world, genes have mixed between our 'direct' ancestors, homo- hedielbergensis (http://humanorigins.si.edu/evidence/human-fossils/species/homo-heidelbergensis) and other variations that have since died out, but have not gone without leaving their genetic mark on those who come from the same areas they did.

[Col. Hstar]

1st @pepsi & Yanoda

As you yourself said pepsi the comment was in response to the comment made by Mandalore. As the course of these 45 pages of post have gone I have found most of Mandalore's comments to be nothing but remarks meant to either be insulting or smart alec in nature, and have decided to respond in kind. These are directed at him, should I bring myself down to his level...well....no one is perfect. I do though as always still feel that the theory of evolution is not scientific and to be blunt, wrong.

2nd @ yanoda

The following post is very very long. It's in response to your last post. I will have to say that it is going to be my last. we have had good conversations, but we both are very entrenched in our own views. I have no problem as you have seen defending my faith and beliefs, but all this typing takes a lot of time. Personally I feel that the bible is something that should be discussed in a face to face setting, not online. if you want to send me a response or ask me to clarify something send me a PM and I'll give you my email address.

Thanks
I'll see everyone in game.

[Col. Hstar]

SOOOO Much to respond to

Sorry, but this analogy cannot be compared with God. Since many (and you) seem to believe he was the creator of humans, that would technically mean that God is the parent (which several religions emphasize).

To start remember, you started the thread asking about some ones view point on the 10 commandments and how they interpret it along with God’s actions. You cannot tell me that my views are wrong anymore then I can tell you that you are wrong. As you say many religions emphasize that God is the parent, I do feel that as the bible says he is our heavenly Father, so to me the analogy fits perfectly.

With that in mind, God would then be considered an abusive, negligent and judgmental parent.

Here you are operating under the incorrect assumption that God is responsible for everything bad that happens to mankind. This is typical as many “religious” leaders teach this very thing. It’s sad that many blindly follow what is told to them instead of learning for themselves from the bible truly who God is and what we mean to him.
I am going to respond to this and the other statements using scripture from the bible. Yes I am going to use the bible. You ask a question on a biblical subject but you don’t want my answers to come from the bible? Really? I don’t pose a question on evolution to you and expect you not to use science to try to explain it. If you don’t like my answers because I don’t use an internet link or a youtube video, (because everyone know that EVERYTHING on the internet is COMPLETELY reliable) that’s not my fault. BTW please don’t think I am angry, I’m not in the least mad, I am though astonished that you would criticize my use of the bible in my arguments. To me I feel that whatever you believe in God, should come 100% from the bible. But now I am repeating myself so on with the response
We’ll begin with:

Abusive: Kills millions of people, punishes many more for minor things. For the good of the few he sees worthy? Not very caring.

1) Kills people – This is still as I said before. God is all powerful and he has promised his people as a whole that they will be protected by him. He uses force when absolutely necessary, such as when his people are trying to escape Egyptian forces intent on killing them. Or murdering bands of Ammorites attacking his people constantly over the course of centuries. The wars that God has waged in the past are not like the wars fought today. Today’s leaders attribute noble motives to their aggression, but human war invariably involves greed and selfishness. Deuteronomy 32:4 says of God - “The Rock, perfect is his activity, for all his ways are justice. A God of faithfulness, with whom there is no injustice; righteous and upright is he.” The bible condemns unbridled rage, cruelty, and violence.

2) Punishes many for minor thing’s – First I would like to know what you mean by punishment.
If you refer to the teaching that there is a hell, that is a false teaching. Think about it, would a loving God send those who have died to a place to be eternally tormented? It was Plato who invented the concept of Hell. In his dialogue Gorgias he speaks of the eternal punishments, a thought later adopted by the “Christian” Church in the 2nd century. Ecclesiastes 9:5,10 says - “For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, . . . for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going.” The Hebrew word Sheol which refers to mankind’s common grave is often incorrectly labeled hell in many bible translations.
Back to the main point people usually are not receiving punishment from God. They are facing the consequences of their actions. i.e. a person who commits adultery will face the possible consequences of destroying their marriage, their life and the life of their spouse. You can’t blame everything on God, many like to say natural disasters are acts of God but they are not. Ecclesiastes 9:11 - I returned to see under the sun that the swift do not have the race, nor the mighty ones the battle, nor do the wise also have the food, nor do the understanding ones also have the riches, nor do even those having knowledge have the favor; because time and unforeseen occurrence befall them all.

3) For the good of the few that he sees worthy – Bluntly put yes. Those who are humble enough and willing to follow his guidelines, as best as they can, receive his blessing. NO ONE is excluded from this opportunity. God is not partial to one races, ethnicity, nationality, or culture. Acts 10:34,35 - “God is not partial, but in every nation the man that fears him and works righteousness is acceptable to him.” James 4:8 – “Draw close to God and he will draw close to you”

Negligent: Leaves people to die, only shows itself to the supposedly 'few chosen' one and just wants everyone else to just have faith in God even if there is no evidence of its existence. Being such a perfect being, it created a lot of imperfect things in the world.

1) Leaves people to die – This requires a pretty extensive explanation. In short you need to go back to the Garden of Eden and look at the issue raised when Adam and Eve rebelled against God. Satan the Devil told Eve that God was withholding from humans. The claim was that mankind did not need God to guide and care for them, the sovereignty of God was challenged and had to be answered. Think of it as a court case, in the Garden of Eden the charges were read, since then we have been in the trial period, God has given ample time for humans to try to show that they can govern themselves and human history has shown a complete and utter failure of humans to direct their own steps. You might think this is uncaring to the millions of people who suffer during this period but this is why God has made the promise of the resurrection to a peaceful new world where mankind can live forever in perfect health. Revelation 21:4 – “And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”

2) Only shows itself to the supposedly 'few chosen' one and just wants everyone else to just have faith in God even if there is no evidence of its existence. – How can you say that god has only shown himself to “few chosen ones”? Do you mean physically. We humans can’t even look at our own sun for an extended period of time without injuring ourselves and you expect the creator of that sun and many others a thousand times stronger, to show himself to us? Did you mean through writing. He did the Bible, the very book that you dismiss as contradictory, outdated, and as you said”not a reliable source”. In it he gives us everything we need to learn about him, starting with his name. Jehovah. In the bible we can read accounts of Jehovah’s dealing with humans. We can see his attributes and qualities learn what he feels and what he intend our purpose to be. This book has survived all odds against it from, those who try to change what was written in it, to those who wanted to erase it from the face of the planet. It is a book anyone can sit down and read and Jehovah God extends an invitation to all to get to know him. Acts 17:27 - for them to seek God, if they might grope for him and really find him, although, in fact, he is not far off from each one of us. Also the physical evidence of his existence is all around us, in his creation. Some like say there is no evidence he exists because everything we see came about by chance. That’s like covering your eyes with your hands to avoid seeing what really right in front of you.

Judgmental: Since God doesn't indicate any existence of its being apart from a book that is ~4000 years old and has been modified countless times, it seems to enjoy punishing those that do not show faith in God. Punishes the entire human race due to an individual's single action.

1) Jehovah God existed for eons and eons before we were created, his morality and sense of right and wrong is perfection personified. How arrogant humans are to think that in the 5000+ years of our existence he should have changed his standards to conform to us…….The bible as a whole is still intact, many have tried to modify it with their own translations, doing some diligent study will help you find a translation that stays with the original text.
2) Punishment for lack of faith – See #2 of your first statement.
3) Punishes the entire human race due to an individual's single action. – Not punishment a consequence. Our original earthly parents made a choice, we suffer the consequence of that choice temporarily. Romans 5:12 “That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned


I would like to make my own list:

Love – Jehovah blesses those who love and worship him, protects them, and helps them. He has been patient in sending judgment upon mankind hoping for as many as possible to turn back to him and gain the hope of everlasting life.

Wisdom – Instead of communicating using unreliable methods like word of mouth, Jehovah gave us his word the bible which harmoniously explains who he is, what his purpose for us is, and how we can draw close to him.

Power – He gave use life. He gave us his creation to enjoy. Created a planet for us to live on that is perfectly placed in our galaxy to support us.

Justice – When Adam and Eve rebelled. He did not summarily destroy them, which incidentally would have been the end of all of us. Instead he allowed humans the chance to try to lead themselves. But he has not left us alone, he offers redemption though the sacrifice his son Jesus made for us. We only need to put faith in it to benefit.

I will put one link in here. This book is available online and is meant to aid a person who wants to understand what the bible teaches. You can use any bible while reading it. It’s not a book that intends to convert anyone to a specific religion, it only encourages people to read the bible, understand what they are reading, and allows them to make their own informed decision about it.

http://www.watchtower.org/e/bh/article_00.htm

Enjoy

[haasd0gg]

If the jehovas witness faith had a blowup in membership and exceeded 144000 members, what would happen to the rest when they die? Would it be first come-first serve?, best witness?, prettiest?, best cook?...

[Hobo]

If the jehovas witness faith had a blowup in membership and exceeded 144000 members, what would happen to the rest when they die? Would it be first come-first serve?, best witness?, prettiest?, best cook?...

I guess they could have an occupy heaven protest once they all die and arrive outside the pearly gates.

[Darth Crater]

Fact is, as much as we can't prove HE is real, I haven't seen any facts that HE's not. Faith is all that HE asks for...why is that so hard? Put it this way....if I believe and accept HIM, I will have forever life, if I don't accept HIM, I will be dammed..I rather believe than not then. Why take a chance of eternal damnation? If there is no GOD, we just die and thats it....but believe..and he promises eternal life...I choose eternal life, and if Im an idiot that believes and I just die..with no Heaven..nothing lost..right?

Ah, Pascal's Wager. My only problem with this argument is that the behaviors required for belief and non-belief are not identical. Belief has costs in this life (such as time, money, and people ranting at you on the internet). That doesn't mean you shouldn't believe, it just means that whether you should or not is determined by a Bayesian calculation involving the odds of God existing. Thus, you're pretty much back where you started - if you think it's likely that God exists you should act as though he exists.

Of course, a deity who cares whether you believe in it to begin with is unlikely to be fooled by such things anyway...