Why MT doesn't believe in this.

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Re: Why MT doesn't believe in this.

Postby The Master » Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:59 pm

Ariel wrote:
Bueno Player wrote:Could you guys please explain things a little simpler, for those of us trying to follow. Right now all I see is Crater an Yannie against Col and now Areil is joining. Some of us would like to follow along with the fight. :gunsmilie:

Haha I really am trying to keep things as simple as possible, but with some of these subjects it's not so easy. Google FTW!


Simple yes but you all seem to have college degrees. Whats simple for you might not be for others. It's alright I'll just try to google it
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Re: Why MT doesn't believe in this.

Postby Col. Hstar » Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:26 pm

Darth Crater wrote:
Col. Homestar wrote:The second paragraph stated in my post that I was not debating to disprove evolution.

Here's what you said...
Evolutionary research fails to provide adequate explanations or satisfying answers to questions about the origin of life.

Physical laws (the 2nd Law) dictate that complex things—machines, houses, and even living cells—in time break down. Yet, evolutionists say the opposite can happen.

The fallacy of Atheism though, is that they believe that their views are based solely on scientific fact. But as you can see, it's not. It's an idea or hypothesis based on an insufficient amount of data. The same can be said about creation, but without complete evidence of evolution, I prefer the the simpler explanation, of a creator, and God

Evolution cannot provide a beginning point for life and the universe. Without an explanation of a beginning everything after has not basis, no foundation.

I'm sure you can understand where I may have gotten that idea.

Yes I totally understand it. I mean if I had read only those parts you put in bold. it would seem that way..... Of course I always learned to read the whole sentence, and take the context of the whole paragraph, it allows you to see the whole picture. :whistling: It might be just a difference in our backgrounds :lol:

Darth Crater wrote:So, then, let me see if I understand this. You are not (unlike Ariel) disputing that natural selection happens. You are not disputing the Second Law. You believe the universe does not look like you would expect it to if it followed the Second Law - how does it differ, what is your favored hypothesis for this difference, and what evidence convinced you to favor it? You believe that a force actively caused the formation of life - What evidence do you have that causes you to favor this over its having occurred via chemical processes we know to be possible?


Your close, I do not believe in the natural selection process, that an argument for later :mrgreen:, and no I'm not disputing 2nd law, I believe that according to law, the only way molecules do not flow into equilibration is if a directed energy keeps them from doing so. My favored hypothesis is that God provides that energy. He is the force that cause the formation of life. No there is no proof other then what I find in the bible, so this does make it a belief of faith. That's my point though. You have no hard proof either of how everything started. You admitted yourself, "It is not impossible that it was guided." So the theory that there is no God who created us, and the belief that there is no God takes a degree of faith.

This is my whole argument. Nether belief can be completely proved so both sides must have faith that

EDIT: Just saw this
Bueno Player wrote:Simple yes but you all seem to have college degrees. Whats simple for you might not be for others. It's alright I'll just try to google it

I don't have a degree, it helps to have one, but it's not required to join the discussion. (You will have to endure shots at your background though :mrgreen:
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Re: Why MT doesn't believe in this.

Postby Ariel » Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:32 pm

Bueno Player wrote:
Ariel wrote:
Bueno Player wrote:Could you guys please explain things a little simpler, for those of us trying to follow. Right now all I see is Crater an Yannie against Col and now Areil is joining. Some of us would like to follow along with the fight. :gunsmilie:

Haha I really am trying to keep things as simple as possible, but with some of these subjects it's not so easy. Google FTW!


Simple yes but you all seem to have college degrees. Whats simple for you might not be for others. It's alright I'll just try to google it


Haha thanks for the compliment, but actually I have no formal degree as of yet, and my degree probably won't even be in this area. This is just one of my favorite subjects to discuss, especially with people who really know their stuff like Yanoda and Darth Crater. I have studied this extensively, and this is by no means my first Creation/evolution debate. I do agree, some of this stuff is hard to understand, but it's worth trying to understand both sides of the argument and be able to make your own objective decision.

EDIT:
Col. Homestar wrote:I don't have a degree, it helps to have one, but it's not required to join the discussion. (You will have to endure shots at your background though :mrgreen:


Unjustified though they may be. Just goes to show you, degrees aren't as important as thinking for yourself, studying the information, and coming to an objective conclusion. Just a note, Homestar, I'm going to go back through and point out all the problems that you missed in their arguments--and there are quite a few. Don't worry; they're easy to miss. Yanoda just likes to compare apples and oranges and change the subject.
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Re: Why MT doesn't believe in this.

Postby Darth Crater » Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:08 pm

Col. Homestar wrote:Yes I totally understand it. I mean if I had read only those parts you put in bold. it would seem that way..... Of course I always learned to read the whole sentence, and take the context of the whole paragraph, it allows you to see the whole picture. :whistling: It might be just a difference in our backgrounds :lol:

I apologize once more. I was misled by the fact that you have been talking about "evolution" and the origin of life since the thread restarted, and in fact are continuing to do so later in this post.


Col. Homestar wrote:I believe that according to law, the only way molecules do not flow into equilibration is if a directed energy keeps them from doing so.

Excellent. You do not dispute the Second Law, so you agree that entropy is monotonically increasing (Bueno: this means it never decreases). Thus, there is no "directed energy" keeping it from doing so.

Col. Homestar wrote:He is the force that cause the formation of life.

Why do you refuse to understand that the origin of life on Earth has nothing to do with the Second Law or with entropy? The law is not applicable in that system or in that field of study. If an exception to the Second Law were confirmed tomorrow, it would change nothing we know about the origin of life.

Col. Homestar wrote:No there is no proof other then what I find in the bible, so this does make it a belief of faith. That's my point though. You have no hard proof either of how everything started. You admitted yourself, "It is not impossible that it was guided." So the theory that there is no God who created us, and the belief that there is no God takes a degree of faith.

My reasoning follows directly from evidence and basic principles of rationality (Bueno - look up Occam's Razor). If faith is belief without evidence, belief based on evidence cannot be faith. Complete proof is not needed for belief, though obviously it would be nice. All you need is evidence, and the willingness to update beliefs when more evidence is encountered.

Ariel: Thanks in advance for pointing out any errors we've made. I'd ask that you give Homestar's posts the same scrutiny...
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Re: Why MT doesn't believe in this.

Postby Col. Hstar » Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:49 pm

I'll amend that to add also that I believe God created the universe as well as life. Thought that was implied. My error. That should help though

Belief based on facts is not faith only when your facts are 100% complete. Sorry but your facts are not. It is those little details like what started it all that you have to take a leap of faith on. Or have you recently had an insight into this?

Glad to have you in the fight Ariel. It's nice to have a second voice. :punk:
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Re: Why MT doesn't believe in this.

Postby Darth Crater » Thu Jun 21, 2012 6:02 pm

The creation of the universe is one of those cases where we really don't have any evidence. As such, I'm not eliminating any hypotheses (including creator deities) until the subject has been studied. We do, however, have evidence about the universe after the Big Bang, and nothing there indicates the intervention of a deity. If the universe was made with exceptionally low entropy, it was done before or at the point of the Big Bang.

You claim that a belief based on faith has "no proof" (in this context, I think you mean "evidence") aside from the Bible; in other words, none.I was using this definition of faith, which does not seem to apply to my belief. If you'd like to use a different definition, that all beliefs with less than absolute confidence involve faith, I will oblige. In this case, my belief, being at least partially based on evidence, requires less faith than yours.

EDIT: Not sure how I feel about this being the 666th post in the thread.
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Re: Why MT doesn't believe in this.

Postby Yanoda » Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:10 pm

Ariel wrote: The more that research is conducted, the more scientists are finding out that genetics disprove the theory of evolution.
A few sample articles: http://www.icr.org/article/6886/ and http://www.icr.org/article/human-chimp-similarities-common-ancestry/ and http://www.icr.org/article/4947/. Objective, scientific research. Hard facts. If you would like more articles, I would be happy to direct you

Did some background checks on the sources for the claims. here is what I found:
http://www.icr.org/article/6886/ states: Scientists have recently discovered that genetic recombination is directed away from sensitive parts of the genome that contain genetic control elements and features. These key parts of the genome carefully regulate how genes are turned off and on and function in precisely regulated networks.
Partly false, the original research paper that was referenced states: Surprisingly, hotspots are still observed in Prdm9 knockout mice, and as in wild type, these hotspots are found at H3 lysine 4 (H3K4) trimethylation marks. However, in the absence of PRDM9, most recombination is initiated at promoters and at other sites of PRDM9-independent H3K4 trimethylation. Such sites are rarely targeted in wild-type mice, indicating an unexpected role of the PRDM9 protein in sequestering the recombination machinery away from gene-promoter regions and other functional genomic elements..
So a protein directly affects how genetic recombination occurs. So the claim from ICR is false.
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/va ... E-20120517

http://www.icr.org/article/human-chimp-similarities-common-ancestry/
A bit deceptive based on what the studies indicate that were referenced.
http://www.pnas.org/content/100/13/7708.long - Indeed states that research indicates similarities between Humans and Chimpanzees are 86.7% but mentions that it is attributed to Indels. Indel: indel describes a special mutation class, defined as a mutation resulting in a colocalized insertion and deletion and a net gain or loss in nucleotides The same journal states that average nucleotide and amino acid identities were 98.9% and 98.3% respectively. Not only that, but the report acknowledges that only half of the chimpanzee MHC has been worked on, that both species are still close related and that indels have the largest influence in major differences between humans and Chimpanzees.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2049197/ State only 6-8% of profiled orthologous exons display pronounced splicing level differences. Quote: "In particular, the present results show that these two layers of regulation have evolved rapidly to affect different subsets of genes, and indicate that alternative splicing has served as an additional mechanism for diversifying gene regulation during the 5–7 million years of evolution separating humans and chimpanzees."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article ... ool=pubmed
The research does indicate that Human and Primate gene regulation vary in the Brain but does not state it is an indication that humans and primates are not related.

http://www.icr.org/article/4947/
First 2 paragraphs use a source that is based on their own website, which in turn uses references that are misinterpreted.
First reference: http://www.icr.org/article/dinosaur-sof ... here-stay/
States that we do not have knowledge (understanding) of decay. Referencing to a news article which interviewed the scientist that found soft tissue in dinosaur bones "Creation magazine claimed that Schweitzer’s research was “powerful testimony against the whole idea of dinosaurs living millions of years ago. It speaks volumes for the Bible’s account of a recent creation.”
This drives Schweitzer crazy. Geologists have established that the Hell Creek Formation, where B. rex was found, is 68 million years old, and so are the bones buried in it.
"
Overall, this first source (http://www.icr.org/article/dinosaur-sof ... here-stay/) keeps making assumptions that soft tissues in dinosaur bones disproves that dinosaurs existed for so many years ago. Yet most of the references used there state that the current knowledge of amino acid and tissue decay is insufficient. Also confirming that the bones are indeed as old as previously stated (~65 million years ago).
Read more: http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-n ... z1ySMnwALl
http://www.sciencemag.org/content/261/5118/160.full.pdf
Uses this reference to state:
"Why was Schweitzer, an eyewitness who microscopically observed the insides of a T. rex bone, afraid to believe her own eyes? Isn't empirical science all about observation?"
In referencing "Mary Schweitzer, a
biology graduate student at Montana State
University's Museum of the Rockies, was
examining a thin section of Tyrannosaurus
rex bone under her light microscope, when
she noticed a series of peculiar structures.
Round and tiny and nucleated, they were
threaded through the bone like red blood
cells in blood vessels. But blood cells in a
dinosaur bone should have disappeared eons
ago. "I got goose bumps," recalls Schweitzer.
"It was exactly like looking at a slice of modem
bone. But, of course, I couldn't believe it.
I said to the lab technician: 'The bones, after
all, are 65 million years old. How could blood
cells survive that long?'"
"

Leaving out the next sentence
"Yet even as she was doubting the evidence
before her eyes, Schweitzer was moving
ahead to another daring thought. If red
blood cells had survived fossilization, it
should be possible to get at the dinosaur's
DNA. "The minute I saw those structures,
getting the DNA became my goal," she says.
"It was obvious that was the thing to try for."

There is nothing about denying or "censoring" of dinosaur bone research.

http://www.sciencemag.org/content/261/5118/161.full.pdf
Next, ICR quotes "...they rely on paleontological theory, which (according to most researchers) holds that dinosaurs and crocodiles came from the same stock, and that the dinosaurs' only living descendants are birds. Therefore researchers look for DNA that is similar, but not identical, to DNA from these groups of organisms." It then comes to the conclusion: "In other words, only DNA research that provides dinosaur DNA sequences similar to those of birds and crocodiles is allowed. As the flowchart indicates, all other results are deemed anomalies that should be rejected as though they were known contaminants, like fungal genes. This approach is not observation-directed empirical research; this is assumption-driven, theory-dictated censorship--"science" falsely so-called."

Leaving out a major paragraph that it is referencing from:
""The whole problem of the field is
that it is not scientific in the sense that many of these things are
not reproducible. People find things they and others cannot repeat,
and so that leaves them on shaky ground."
Raul Cano, whose lab at California Polytechnic State University
is in the thick of the race to clone dinosaur genes, agrees that
the solution is going to require work from more than one group.
"It's going to take hard work by several labs to finally verify
dinosaur DNA. And in the end, the only way you can be absolutely
certain that you've got it is to find a frozen dinosaur."
"
They admit that using that process isn't the best thus far and improvements need to be made. There is no form of "evolutionary gatekeeping".
Though it is an excellent example of quote mining.

Ariel wrote:
Yanoda wrote:2. fossil records
Pssshhhh...did you really just say that? The fossil record is the biggest evidence against evolution there is! The lack of transitional fossils is appalling when you consider that the ground should be quite literally FULL of them, if evolution is to be believed.

Not necessarily, you seem to ignore the vast amounts of fossils found thus far that do indicate transitional forms. It is true we will likely not have all of them, but we find more and more fossils that provide a better overall picture of the fossil record. Please provide some examples as to why exactly the fossil record is evidence against evolution.
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrar ... faq.php#e4

Ariel wrote:
Yanoda wrote:3. and observed evolving of animals
I will give you the point about micro-evolution, but you are still comparing apples and oranges. You are talking about evolution within a species, which is a proven scientific principle. Inter-special evolution (one species evolving into another), however, is a theory still to be proven. It is this kind of evolution that is necessary for all the diversity we see today. You sneaky evolutionists...trying to change the subject.

You seem to have missed my post concerning divergent evolution with the link explaining it.
Here is an observed & researched example: http://www.mendeley.com/research/popula ... ciation-7/

Ariel wrote:Yanoda just likes to compare apples and oranges and change the subject.

Please refrain from making baseless assumptions. If you do feel I have done so, please provide examples and in turn I shall address them accordingly.

I have provided many references and links, that help explain my position and the research/evidence to back it up. Yet, I have a feeling that none of this is being properly read or accounted for. I have spent 3 hours reading 10 research papers in reference to ICR and writing this post. I will not be able to take part in this discussion as often, unfortunately, but I would very much appreciate if a little effort is given in checking the links I provide.

So I ask one question that I wish to have answered (which has been ignored many times, yet I'm being accused of changing the subject etc.).
Why is the God you know, considered real and existing despite no defined evidence to confirm the evidence? Why is the God you know, despite many more different deities and mythological creatures existing in different cultures, considered real?

Cheers

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Re: Why MT doesn't believe in this.

Postby Col. Hstar » Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:15 pm

Darth Crater wrote:If you'd like to use a different definition, that all beliefs with less than absolute confidence involve faith, I will oblige. In this case, my belief, being at least partially based on evidence, requires less faith than yours


I think we are making progress. We can debate the validity of the bible next if you like. Another 15 pages at least :punk:

Darth Crater wrote:EDIT: Not sure how I feel about this being the 666th post in the thread.


They're really just numbers, but if you don't believe in God why would you worry :lol:
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Re: Why MT doesn't believe in this.

Postby Col. Hstar » Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:29 pm

@Yanodas last paragraph. Because the belief in God is based on the evidence and our common sense approach that all creation from the vast universe to the smaller but no less important strands of DNA. Our faith allows us to view the evidence in this manner. Our faith is based on what we have read and learned about God in the Bible. Your beliefs that there is no evidence of God so he must not exists is also to a degree based on faith. Because without god in the equation you have to many questions without answers concerning the beginning of life.

You cling to this idea that everything you believe in is based on scientific fact, but as I have been pointing out (things I spent time researching that you have yet to respond to) the theory of evolution CANNOT provide a solid iron clad answer for what began the process of 1. The universe 2. Life of any kind on earth 3. The existence of human life as we know it today, the fact that you don't have all the answers either shows your beliefs to also be based on faith.
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Re: Why MT doesn't believe in this.

Postby Darth Crater » Thu Jun 21, 2012 10:51 pm

I'm not sure what you mean by "making progress". I can list a string of my arguments which you have completely ignored, and which I am therefore forced to assume you do not dispute, in favor of semantics about "faith". I suppose I can call that progress.

Col. Homestar wrote: We can debate the validity of the bible next if you like.

Sure. A book, demonstrably written by humans, which some consider to provide evidence for a deity's existence because they have failed to notice the circular logic involved (God exists because the Bible says so, the Bible is true because God created it). Done.

Col. Homestar wrote:Because the belief in God is based on the evidence and our common sense approach that all creation from the vast universe to the smaller but no less important strands of DNA

This is not even a proper sentence. I can't tell if you meant something along the lines of "all was created" or "all creation is equally important". In any case, I have seen no evidence from your side of the debate, merely your pointing out a few gaps in our current knowledge. All of these either have more evidence for competing hypotheses than they do for yours, or have no evidence at all. In none of these cases should you be favoring a god, unless your worldview is simply that divorced from reality.
Col. Homestar wrote:You cling to this idea that everything you believe in is based on scientific fact, but as I have been pointing out (things I spent time researching that you have yet to respond to) the theory of evolution CANNOT provide a solid iron clad answer for what began the process of 1. The universe 2. Life of any kind on earth 3. The existence of human life as we know it today

Why are you once again:
-talking about "evolution" without clarifying whether or not you include abiogenesis? If you include it it satisfies 2 and 3, if you don't it satisfies 3 and abiogenesis separately satisfies 2.
-Connecting "evolution" with the origin of the universe, which is not even in the same field of study?
-Continuously bringing up points like this which I have refuted previously, and which you have provided no counterarguments to support?

I can understand lack of knowledge. I cannot forgive utter failure to learn.

By the way, the comment about 666 was mentioned because it has relevance to religion in popular culture. No "worry" anywhere.
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