Why MT doesn't believe in this.

[THEWULFMAN]

Like I said, I believe in souls too. I just can't use Duncan's findings as proof.

[Darth Crater]

Panama:

Evidence does not just mean what I've seen with my own eyes. Studies done by experts in various fields are evidence. Everything they have done is available for viewing if you wish. Strength of evidence has to be multiplied by confidence in the source, sure, but there's plenty of sources we can be confident in. Also, note that by your argument, since you were not there for any of the events recorded in the Bible, it is completely untrustworthy.

About the soul experiment - as far as I know, they have since measured bodies upon death. Thus, "never replicated" effectively means "disproven". If you had any confidence in this experiment, Panama, it absolutely should "shake your foundation". You don't have to change your belief, just like an earthquake doesn't always knock over your house, but you should reconsider it to face the current state of the evidence.

You seem to have misunderstood my whole reason for responding. I don't want to "shoot you down", though if I think what you believe is wrong it's probably inevitable. What I want is to understand why you believe what you believe, so that I can improve my own beliefs. Specifically, I've recently been trying to find out if there's such a thing as a "soul" or "spirit", because a great many beliefs seem to hinge upon that. So far, I haven't seen anything that would convince me of such, but I was hoping for another fresh opinion. So:

-What do you think the soul actually does? In other words, how do you define "soul"?
-Given that definition, what causes you to think that we have souls? How do you think we can detect them or their influence?

(Had a half-written response to Wulf that got lost in a PC reboot. I'll reconstruct it later.)

[11_Panama_]

Panama:

Evidence does not just mean what I've seen with my own eyes. Studies done by experts in various fields are evidence. Everything they have done is available for viewing if you wish. Strength of evidence has to be multiplied by confidence in the source, sure, but there's plenty of sources we can be confident in. Also, note that by your argument, since you were not there for any of the events recorded in the Bible, it is completely untrustworthy.

About the soul experiment - as far as I know, they have since measured bodies upon death. Thus, "never replicated" effectively means "disproven". If you had any confidence in this experiment, Panama, it absolutely should "shake your foundation". You don't have to change your belief, just like an earthquake doesn't always knock over your house, but you should reconsider it to face the current state of the evidence.

You seem to have misunderstood my whole reason for responding. I don't want to "shoot you down", though if I think what you believe is wrong it's probably inevitable. What I want is to understand why you believe what you believe, so that I can improve my own beliefs. Specifically, I've recently been trying to find out if there's such a thing as a "soul" or "spirit", because a great many beliefs seem to hinge upon that. So far, I haven't seen anything that would convince me of such, but I was hoping for another fresh opinion. So:

-What do you think the soul actuall]? In other words, how do you define "soul"?
-Given that definition, what causes you to think y does[/ithat we have souls? How do you think we can detect them or their influence?

(Had a half-written response to Wulf that got lost in a PC reboot. I'll reconstruct it later.)

Are you serious Crater? LMAO, find where I said that my beliefs comes entirely from the Bible? That's exactly why I won't "debate" with you or others. You're "ad-libing". If you did pay attention to my few posts, you would see that I don't care for Religion, and that equates the same with the Bible. My faith is with God and Jesus, that's it. While I'm not saying that the Bible, in it's entirety, is a sham, I do believe that it's been altered, with some books ommited.

About the experiments of the soul, Wulfi filled me in about the tests being flawed. I was thankful for that information, but I still believe in the soul. Why should it "absolutely shake my foundation"?
As I stated a few times before, maybe there are things that we will never (or shouldn't) know. Why is that so hard to fathom? Do you actually believe that we will come to a time that we will know all that there is to know? Also, have you ever stopped and thought that perhaps we are not as scientificly advanced as we might think. Advanced enough to proof/disproof things that are "supernatural"?


Your quote- What I want is to [i]understand why you believe what you believe[/i], so that I can [i]improve my own beliefs.


LOL. Did you type that with a straight face? I find that comment hard to believe. I've been reading this thread, on and off, and I haven't seen you, or any one say...."oh, that's interesting, thank you for sharing that with me". All I've seen is, "prove it", "where's your sources?", and "you're contradicting yourself", that does not encourage me to open up to you.


Your quote--What do you think the soul actuall]? In other words, how do you define "soul"?

I define the soul and spirit as the same thing. My definiton of the soul/spirit is energy. It's what's left after we pass on, I believe this body is a mere shell. Our soul/spirit is released and we no longer are bound by law of physics as we know it....the rules change. We can go forward and backwards in time...we may be able to travel anywhere we choose to. I'm hoping that we may travel through the universe. And of course, being able to travel to "Heaven".


Your quote--Given that definition, what causes you to think y [i]does[/ithat we have souls? How do you think we can detect them or their influence?


Faith causes me to believe we have souls. The answer to the second part of your question is in the form of a question. You don't feel your soul when you're mourning?...or a breakup from the woman you love? I did. Do you actually think that a "broken heart" is really your heart breaking? That "pain" is your soul/spirit in distress, that's what I believe.

[Darth Crater]

I never claimed you said your beliefs come entirely from the Bible. Don't start acting like Homestar. I didn't claim anything about you there, I just reasoned from your argument that "nothing is evidence unless you yourself witnessed it or experienced it." It directly follows from that statement that the Bible (the only source of information about God and Jesus) is not evidence for anything that it contains. Given that I disagree with that argument, I do think the Bible is evidence - it's just very weak evidence and contradicted by many more and stronger sources.

About the experiments of the soul, Wulfi filled me in about the tests being flawed. I was thankful for that information, but I still believe in the soul. Why should it "absolutely shake my foundation"?
As I stated a few times before, maybe there are things that we will never (or shouldn't) know. Why is that so hard to fathom? Do you actually believe that we will come to a time that we will know all that there is to know? Also, have you ever stopped and thought that perhaps we are not as scientificly advanced as we might think. Advanced enough to proof/disproof things that are "supernatural"?

"Absolutely should," not "should absolutely". I didn't say to what degree - if you only had the faintest confidence in this anyway, and most of your evidence for souls came from other sources, you shouldn't need to change anything.

There are certainly things that we might never know. For example, what if anything was before the Big Bang. There are even things that we can prove it's impossible to know - in physics, the Uncertainty Principle; in my field, the Halting Problem. I don't claim that we know everything, but we do not know nothing. There is nothing that is "supernatural," and no dividing line where science suddenly stops giving useful results. Everything has an explanation, and everything works according to the same rules.

LOL. Did you type that with a straight face? I find that comment hard to believe. I've been reading this thread, on and off, and I haven't seen you, or any one say...."oh, that's interesting, thank you for sharing that with me". All I've seen is, "prove it", "where's your sources?", and "you're contradicting yourself", that does not encourage me to open up to you.

Most of what I'm arguing against has been Homestar, or demonstrable falsehoods. Really, mostly both. Beyond that, I'm trying to do the same for other people that I want done to me - point out problems.

You don't feel your soul when you're mourning?...or a breakup from the woman you love? I did. Do you actually think that a "broken heart" is really your heart breaking? That "pain" is your soul/spirit in distress, that's what I believe.

This is all neurological and chemical. Thoughts and emotions are fundamentally physical things, which we can detect and alter. See here for the science. There's no "soul", as a distinct entity, involved.

[FaiL.?]

I thought that I would try to throw this out, but isn't the Soul the Conciousness?

[11_Panama_]

I thought that I would try to throw this out, but isn't the Soul the Conciousness?

Nope, the conscious is what tells you right from wrong. I would include common sense in there too.

[Darth Crater]

Two different things there. The "consciousness" is basically your current thoughts. These are directly tied to the brain, there's nothing supernatural or metaphysical about them, and they don't survive past death.

The "conscience" is basically your understanding of what's good and bad. Some of it is natural, some of it's taught by society.

[11_Panama_]

Well I guess you know it all then, don't you? Why do you want to keep this going? You can call it a debate, but I call as I see it..an argument. Who the hell wants to sit here and argue? Really Crater, don't you see what your doing? By the way, I think Hadrian was talking about a "concsious", not conciousness. And please, tell me how the hell do you or anyone else knows what happens to conciousness after death. I was never aware that it could be recorded or observed. I told you before. I'm not playing this game with you. Do not expect me to toggle back and forth with you for another 20 pages. I mean that respectfully, not trying to be a jerk about it. Why do you ask what and why I believe, only to come back with evidence that I'm wrong? That sounds like a great exchange of ideas. I bet it helped you shape and mold what you believe in, right?

Oh, and by the way....The Bible is NOT the only "proof" of God and Jesus. Ever heard of The Quaran? As well as The Book of Mormons? While I by no mean is trying to say that I believe in any of those books to be "proof" of God's existance, just correcting what you typed earlier.

[11_Panama_]

LOL, I read what I posted and it didn't sound* as I imagined. First of all, not mad at you Crater, I'm sure you're into this alot more than I am. As a er of fact, I'm not following the lessons that I was taught as a young man. That lesson being, "never talk about politics or religion" (also "never lend money to friends, if you want to keep them your friends"). I apologize if I came off alittle brutish. I was going to delete the post but I'm going to leave it as a reminder to me, so I don't repeat it. Just so you know though, I won't be participating anymore. I will follow the lessons of my youth.

[THEWULFMAN]

I was discussing my findings with my mom and I had a stroke of brilliance I should have thought of earlier and was stupid not to have. I gave up way too easily.

Panama and the Colonel both pulled the "god can do anything" card out when confronted with solid evidence that The Flood didn't happen. I counter with this, if God can do anything, why not just kill all the bad humans and be done with it? Why waste so much time and energy on a massive flood when simply killing all the humans would have been faster and more efficient? It makes no sense.

If The Flood did happen, that means God summoned forth the energy to flood the Earth, then made it so that all the plant life didn't die off, and then made it so that all the remaining animals didn't die off from starvation and over-hunting. then made it so that all the freshwater marine life didn't die off from lack of a proper ph level, then removed all evidence of The Flood in our sediment, fossil, and other assorted records.

Why would he/she/it go to all that trouble when killing all the bad humans would have accomplished the same goal? He/she/it wouldn't. He/she/it didn't. The Flood didn't happen, not to the scale it says it did in the bible at least.

Shame the Colonel and Panama have retired. YO MT, COME OVER HERE LOL