The independent states of America

[[m'kay]]

Islam and Christianity are fundamentally pretty much the same [m'kay] religion. The only difference is that when secularism started to take ahold in those respective societies (13/14th century for Islam) and the 17/18th for Christianity they diverted down different paths. The Muslims adopted the policy of regarding the later parts of the Koran as more important than the early. And seeing as the Koran's policies scale in relation to the power of the Mohammadan faction scaling, it becomes more violent. It was designed to create an empire, and it created one of the top five in humanity's history. In the west, secularism was also coupled with peasant revolutions in major European countries. This has led to the touchy feeling Christianity that now exists today. A bunch of pussies who honestly have probably not even read either of the old testaments. And even when they do they still say that their genocidal deity is a loving father figure who even though ordering acts that would have made Hitler proud is still the most loving guy, like evur! The only true fundamental difference between Islam and Christianity is that Mohammad survived! I often wonder what would have happened had Jesus not had his little Jewish ass killed by what was still essentially a Roman proxy state. Then of course there's that happy alternative story where Jesus appears on the scene around 70 A.D. manages to say about three words before the Romans string him up and everyone who he ever talked to. Ah the good old days.

And someone earlier represented the tax on non-believers in Islam in the wrong light. That was so they could have religious freedom, if they didn't pay it they at least had to pay mouth service to Islam. It is honestly the greatest idea of mass conversion in the history of the world. All the faith in what was once the Christian heartland was within a century predominantly Muslim.

As for living in either society as proposed by, I think WD. Assuming that this happened later in my life in which I had the same ideological system we all know I would have already been arrested and executed within the first six months of that regime coming to power. And I would be perfectly content with that, rather than watch Humanity drag itself back down into the cesspit of world wide theocracy.

Oh and happy Thanksgiving! :D

Finally, a semi-decent response...

You'll get semi-decent responses when you earn them, pi. Until then, i'm content with just pointing out how contradictory and childish you are.

[kjeopardy]

Islam and Christianity are fundamentally pretty much the same [m'kay] religion. The only difference is that when secularism started to take ahold in those respective societies (13/14th century for Islam) and the 17/18th for Christianity they diverted down different paths. The Muslims adopted the policy of regarding the later parts of the Koran as more important than the early. And seeing as the Koran's policies scale in relation to the power of the Mohammadan faction scaling, it becomes more violent. It was designed to create an empire, and it created one of the top five in humanity's history. In the west, secularism was also coupled with peasant revolutions in major European countries. This has led to the touchy feeling Christianity that now exists today. A bunch of pussies who honestly have probably not even read either of the old testaments. And even when they do they still say that their genocidal deity is a loving father figure who even though ordering acts that would have made Hitler proud is still the most loving guy, like evur! The only true fundamental difference between Islam and Christianity is that Mohammad survived! I often wonder what would have happened had Jesus not had his little Jewish ass killed by what was still essentially a Roman proxy state. Then of course there's that happy alternative story where Jesus appears on the scene around 70 A.D. manages to say about three words before the Romans string him up and everyone who he ever talked to. Ah the good old days.

And someone earlier represented the tax on non-believers in Islam in the wrong light. That was so they could have religious freedom, if they didn't pay it they at least had to pay mouth service to Islam. It is honestly the greatest idea of mass conversion in the history of the world. All the faith in what was once the Christian heartland was within a century predominantly Muslim.

As for living in either society as proposed by, I think WD. Assuming that this happened later in my life in which I had the same ideological system we all know I would have already been arrested and executed within the first six months of that regime coming to power. And I would be perfectly content with that, rather than watch Humanity drag itself back down into the cesspit of world wide theocracy.

Oh and happy Thanksgiving! :D

Finally, a semi-decent response...

You'll get semi-decent responses when you earn them, pi. Until then, i'm content with just pointing out how contradictory and childish you are.

When do I get decent responses ?

[kjeopardy]

So far the only point you have made is that Israel has killed civilians. This does not constitute a humanitarian crisis or violation. It is impossible for Israel to allow Hamas to fire missiles at its citizens unabated. If some civilians die as a result of Israel's defending itself---that is a byproduct of war. Hamas is responsible for those deaths---not Israel.

In fact, the Israeli government drops leaflets and broadcasts programming urging civilians to avoid areas which will be the target of bombing runs.

You just buy what NPR and CNN believe---the Palestinians have a right to attack Israel, and Israel doesn't have the right to respond. It's ridiculous.

Remember what I said earlier: "What is a ceasfire? Israel ceases, Palestinians fire"??

How right I was...they agreed to a ceasefire yesterday only for Hamas to break it, and then re-agree to it.

You make the mistake of believing that the Arabs are normal, rational people who can be reasoned with. They aren't. The only way for Israel to survive is to respond with force---and they don't even do that nearly as much as they should!!! If Israel knew what was good for it, they would level the entire strip and relocate the population to other Arab nations---that would be acting in it's own interests, regardless of what the liberal press says about it.

You have unbelievable nerve and exhibit willful stupidity---in Israel, Arabs are treated as equal citizens and even allowed to hold public office. Do you think the same courtesy is extended to Jews in Arab nations? Definitely not.

Good God! The United Nations, after World War Two, seized Palestinian land and awarded it to Israel. There are people with deeds that prove they are the rightful owners of the lands they were forced from. Israel's occupation of Gaza is contradictory to everything we, the western world, stands for.

Your ignorance leads you to group all "Arabs" together in one group. Because are so blind by your undying support for Israel's war crimes, you don't see that the Palestinians have a right to that land! Americans support Israel for strategic interests, because the Protestants here believe that the Jews are the chosen people, and gives Israel billions of dollars in aid every year.

The International Community is too afraid to step up to the US and confront them in regards to their support of Israel. I acknowledge that Israel is much more of a democratic society than any of the Mid-East nations, and treats its citizenry far better than most Mid-East Nations, but it does perpetrate atrocious acts against the Palestinians. You can't expect an entire to people to suddenly transition to democracy (Palestinians) and relinquish claims to their land when the fact is: generations and generations of oppression have seethed its way into the Palestinians, they hate Israel for what it has done to them.

You make the mistake of believing that the Arabs are normal, rational people who can be reasoned with. They aren't.

You blithering idiot! How dare you! Think before you speak you fool. Look into the history of Mid-East oppression - the leaders are corrupt and the people are brainwashed by those leaders and by the actions of the US. You should recognize that calling an entire race abnormal and irrational reflects on your understanding of diversity and plight.

Calling me "willfully stupid" is not reflective of your intelligence. I recognize you are intelligent, but you are also close-minded. Recognize both sides. I don't support Hamas' violence, but I also abhor Israeli cruelty.

In regard to the Arabs "can't be reasoned with..." I do believe that the generalization is correct—the only compromise that satisfies the Arab world is the destruction of Israel, nothing less. And don't go on some whole rant about how that's only the extremists—there is a deeply seeded disdain and hatred for Israel present throughout the Arab world; not only extremists feel it. Ever seen videos of ordinary Arabs burning American flags and cheering for the destruction of Israel—not just extremists want it. The difference is that ordinary Arabs aren't actually trying to destroy Israel—but I believe the majority of them feel it (again, not all).

The sentiment throughout the Arab world is hatred for the immorality, openness, and liberties of the West. I agree with you that the people are brainwashed to think this—but what should we do? Sit around feeling sorry that the majority of Arabs never get to know anything other than the teachings of hatred? Why are these extremists even in power anyway? Cause the people put them there lol...Leaders can only rule with the support of the population (or at least a decent portion of it). Just like in 1933 when Hitler became Chancellor of Germany through the vaunted practice of democracy; he was supported by ordinary Germans, who after the war claimed that they had no idea of the Holocaust and war crimes that they committed? Do you buy 1 word of that? I would hope not...

I think you are intelligent as well. Hence, "willfully stupid"—not naturally. You've just been brainwashed by the whole mantra of the 21st century---"respect all peoples regardless of their respect for you, see the good in everyone, ignore the facts in favor of being politically correct..."

Whether or not you think the creation of the state of Israel was justified is irrelevant at such a point—it does exist...so the Arabs need to get used to it. What acts of Israel cruelty are you referring to? If civilians are killed during Israel's attempts to defend itself, that isn't an act of cruelty.

BTW: do you live in England or are you from England—based on the diction of your writing, I kinda feel like you are (though Im probably wrong)...

[(SWGO)SirPepsi]

When European nations emerged as the leading world powers in the latter half of the eighteenth century, the Moslem leaders in the Middle East were dealing with riots, disarray, and quite a bit of confusion as European interests and colonisation pushed its way further into the Americas and into Africa, creating a perceived threat to Islamic culture.

Throughout history, leaders have used religion to oppress or force a society to conform to a standard. If you'll notice, the royals in Saudi Arabia do not adhere to laws forbidding the consumption of alcohol. Women of wealthy families in Iran dress and act as they please. Leaders have used religion to force the poor and powerless to remain poor and powerless - they exploited their faith and turned it into a sick, greedy grab for control of the masses.

This was not right, but because of the actions of Middle Eastern leaders in the past, the Islamic World today is left in shambles, and it doesn't help their recovery when foreign interest groups push and promote their policies in the aforementioned nations.

The above is all I was trying to convey.

[(SWGO)SirPepsi]

In regard to the Arabs "can't be reasoned with..." I do believe that the generalization is correct—the only compromise that satisfies the Arab world is the destruction of Israel, nothing less. And don't go on some whole rant about how that's only the extremists—there is a deeply seeded disdain and hatred for Israel present throughout the Arab world; not only extremists feel it. Ever seen videos of ordinary Arabs burning American flags and cheering for the destruction of Israel—not just extremists want it. The difference is that ordinary Arabs aren't actually trying to destroy Israel—but I believe the majority of them feel it (again, not all).

The sentiment throughout the Arab world is hatred for the immorality, openness, and liberties of the West. I agree with you that the people are brainwashed to think this—but what should we do? Sit around feeling sorry that the majority of Arabs never get to know anything other than the teachings of hatred? Why are these extremists even in power anyway? Cause the people put them there lol...Leaders can only rule with the support of the population (or at least a decent portion of it). Just like in 1933 when Hitler became Chancellor of Germany through the vaunted practice of democracy; he was supported by ordinary Germans, who after the war claimed that they had no idea of the Holocaust and war crimes that they committed? Do you buy 1 word of that? I would hope not...

I think you are intelligent as well. Hence, "willfully stupid"—not naturally. You've just been brainwashed by the whole mantra of the 21st century---"respect all peoples regardless of their respect for you, see the good in everyone, ignore the facts in favor of being politically correct..."

Whether or not you think the creation of the state of Israel was justified is irrelevant at such a point—it does exist...so the Arabs need to get used to it. What acts of Israel cruelty are you referring to? If civilians are killed during Israel's attempts to defend itself, that isn't an act of cruelty.

BTW: do you live in England or are you from England—based on the diction of your writing, I kinda feel like you are (though Im probably wrong)...

I'm sorry, I was posting another response and at the same time yours came through. I'll go ahead and respond.

Yes, I do agree with you on the majority of the above. Most residents of Middle Eastern countries are brainwashed by their governments (or Mosques, etc.) into hating the west. And although the majority of that hatred is unjustified, some of it does have basis (in every lie, there is some truth).

You see, in the 1950s, Iranians democratically elected a charismatic leader (the election was certified as real by the UN), but this leader wanted to return power to the people. He nationalised all the Iranian oil reserves, which cut off a large portion of income for the Brits and the US. Our Intelligence Agencies began a coup-de-etat and overthrew their democratically elected leader. We installed the Shah - note that the Shah began a genocidal wave of terror in Iran. He tortured, killed, and suppressed freedom. He was supported by the US Government. Because of our foolish actions, the Iranian Hostage Crisis began, and we have not had diplomatic relations with Iran ever since. (Watch the movie Argo; it explains all of this).

We interfered when we should not have, and that has cost us quite a bit. I understand Israel's need to defend itself, but I wish the US would, before blatantly discounting the Palestinian's claim, arbitrate a peace in which all Palestinians are granted some of their land back. It is not plausible to erase Israel, nor do I advocate such action, and I recognize that Ahmadinejad's statements only rile things up, but remember, those in the Middle East do have a story to tell.

They are afraid of further US intervention in their region, and with idiots like Rick Santorum and Newt Gingrich talking about bombing Iran to the ground, they have a right to be scared.

EDIT: Oh, and no, I don't live in the UK :D.

[kjeopardy]

Hmm, I agree with you that a lot of the hatred of the west does lie squarely on the backs of America and other western nations which take it upon themselves to act as the international police and meddle in affairs which should not be meddled in.

With Israel though—the Arabs have a lot of land, the Jews have practically none. For the record, the Arabs would have had more land were they not unreasonable in the 30s and 40s when the partition plans were devised; had they not instigated the 1967 War, they would also have more land...

For now, I'm gonna issue my final stance...

While the vast majority of Muslims are peaceful, the ideology to which they adhere is extremely corrupt, violent, and primitive. Having read texts of the religion, I believe that there is no way it can exist peacefully having come into contact with a world whose practices are abhorred by every facet of Islamic thought. I also do not subscribe to the sentiment that it's only a few extremists who hate the West—the rest are our friends. [m'kay] that, cause it's crap!

Where is the public outrage of Islamic leaders whenever terrorism is committed? Why are there always Muslims cheering in the streets and protesting wildly against American and Israel? I'll tell you why—cause they don't like us, regardless of how CNN and the liberal media try to portray them as "victims" of extremists. The same justification was used after WW2 as to why the German people did nothing to stop Hitler? The answer to that question is simple—they didn't stop him cause they supported and liked his ideas. The same trend is happening now—Muslims all over the world cheer on the actions of these extremists, while the ignorant US and Western world sits by pretending that this isn't the case.

It's utter insanity and irrationality.

Pepsi—you are wrong about in your stance about Israel...Maybe the manner of its creation was unfair (from your point of view, I don't agree) but that does not justify the Arabs waging an ongoing and never ending struggle for its destruction. Israel is willing to make concessions in exchange for peace—but the only concession they want is for Israel to be destroyed.

I am no racist, and am not distrustful of foreigners—I believe strongly in allowing significant immigration. However, this country's gotta wake up and realize that the majority of Arabs don't view us with the same tolerance that we wish to extend to them...

[THEWULFMAN]

I think you're both partially wrong and both partially right, but I don't have the energy to put all my thoughts together.

I think the simple solution is to have you two fight it out to the death. It's the civil thing to do.

[[m'kay]]

I think you're both partially wrong and both partially right, but I don't have the energy to put all my thoughts together.

I think the simple solution is to have you two fight it out to the death. It's the civil thing to do.

no that's not entirely fair wulf, someone has to represent the moderates in all this


okay [m'kay], let's [m'kay] DO THIS

[kjeopardy]

I think you're both partially wrong and both partially right, but I don't have the energy to put all my thoughts together.

I think the simple solution is to have you two fight it out to the death. It's the civil thing to do.

no that's not entirely fair wulf, someone has to represent the moderates in all this


okay mother-[m'kay], let's [m'kay] DO THIS

The fight is starting to die down lol in favor of compromising on some issues, and agreeing to disagree on others.

Oh well, I'm always happy for a debate.

I invite you to check out this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rh34Xsq7D_A

It's long, but you can skip to the end for the decision...

[[m'kay]]

I was talking about a fight to the death. You know, something more meaningful and worthwhile than all the debates on these forums.