American Christians, do you feel persecuted?

[Draigun]

Believe it or not if you will, there was a case of a mind over er situation in which the mind defies science itself.

The man who is able to sit in a tub that is as tall as himself, full of ice and cold water, is Wim Hof. He can do this for at least 20 minutes without having his core body temperature drop and having his heart rate increase. Here are some links from Wikipedia to prove what he does: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wim_Hof#References

I find it a bit funny that the topic went from religion to superhuman abilities. It shows that occasionally, we need to dab into this in order to get a grip onto our opinionated sides.

As for what Crater says regarding most of what Otto wanted to have explained, it all sounds logical completely. We can't always just take one perspective when looking for a solution / explanation.

[CommanderOtto]

So, if some of them are fake... How do you tell the difference between them and any hypothetical real ones?

it's hard to tell. i'm never going to talk to, or watch someone speaking with the spirits as that is prohibited by the Bible. However, just by looking at commercials and the way they talk, those Las Vegas magicians are the biggest fakes of them all.

[Darth Crater]

Drai, while that man is incredibly impressive, nothing he does "defies science." Even the wiki article you linked says that he simply has extreme control over his body's ability to generate heat.

Otto - if you can't tell the difference between a "real" one and a fake one, why do you think that the "real" ones aren't simply faking it as well?

[CommanderOtto]

well I guess that if someone was really able to tell the future, and it happened, then how can that be a lie? But since I will not go to someone like that, yes you are right I can't prove it that far.


I once saw something interesting though. Near my congregation, when I lived in Brazil, there was a "hospital". The freakin "hospital" was a problem because I could not find a place to park my car (there was no parking lot near my congregation) so I had to park the car in the street. It was always hard to find a spot because there were so many people going to the "hospital" sometimes I could not find a place to park unless it was a few blocks away (so I could go to my congregation).

That means that the "hospital" was full of people and it was a "spiritual hospital" and some people who lived there told me people went there because they talked to spirits and got cured of diseases. Of course, I could never go there and I don't want to either, but since hundreds of people went there and paid a lot of money for it, I guess it is true. Why would so many people waste so much money if nothing happened or if there was a hint that it is a hoax? Those places do seem to be the real deal. How could you ask hundreds of people to lie about something? Besides, these are not showplaces. There are no advertisements or colorful lights and rabbits being pulled out of hats. People go there because they do see things (or at least that's what it seems)

but I could never tell for sure.

[Darth Crater]

Exactly - the only way to distinguish the real ones is by testing their powers. If you put them in a situation where the methods of faking (intentional or not) don't work, then you can tell if they have real power. However, nobody tested so far has actually been supernatural. And it's not just that they don't want to be tested - James Randi has a foundation offering $1 million to anyone who can demonstrate supernatural powers. It's never been claimed.

Why would so many people waste so much money if nothing happened or if there was a hint that it is a hoax? Those places do seem to be the real deal. How could you ask hundreds of people to lie about something?

You can find people willing to believe literally any claim you care to make. And the placebo effect is a powerful, powerful thing.

[CommanderOtto]

You can find people willing to believe literally any claim you care to make. And the placebo effect is a powerful, powerful thing.

true, sometimes people believe in the dumbest things (like 2012 being the end of the world). Just because the mayan calendar ends there..

[Draigun]

Drai, while that man is incredibly impressive, nothing he does "defies science." Even the wiki article you linked says that he simply has extreme control over his body's ability to generate heat.

Unfortunately, I lack the proof to actually show that he defies science. However at this point, it's not a er of defying science, it's simply knowing that the mind can be stronger than the body at times, forcefully or not.

I'm sure its a plausible assumption to say that most humans are incapable of constricting our body core veins to that point. But, I strongly believe that practicing something for a long time will get you somewhere significantly.

[Darth Crater]

The "mind" and "body" are not separate things. But regardless of that, his ability doesn't seem to have anything supernatural about it - awe-inspiring, but not supernatural. It functions via known machinery (the body and its heat regulation systems), it has measurable effects, and it is apparently teachable and learnable. If anything it just puts into perspective how flimsy most "supernatural" claims really are.

[11_Panama_]

So, if some of them are fake... How do you tell the difference between them and any hypothetical real ones?

The "fake" ones do it for money. while the "real" ones doesn't want anyone to know about their "gifts".

[Darth Crater]

Problem is, that's another unfalsifiable scenario. If no real ones are tested, and we can't tell the difference between untested fake ones and untested real ones, we cannot determine if there are any real ones. In addition, it contradicts what we know of human nature - people who want to help others or to help themselves both have incentives to be tested and found legitimate.