Fluoride In Water

[CommanderOtto]

i'm glad I watched that video

[Darth Crater]

I'll get to this eventually, but since you haven't even bothered to answer any of my previous points I'm in no great hurry.

If you're implying that the post was for you, that's not correct. What I'm doing here is spreading the message out.

I do, however, see what you've implied in your post, Crater. I do apologize for taking a long time to even post on the subject, but I honestly didn't care to read that rebuttal you mentioned. Why? Because I know for a fact it nitpicks at the little details. What I've been attempting to get across are the more prevalent ers. There is no denying the fact that fluoride is a drug, and ALL drugs created by mankind have at least one long-term/short-term side effect. Also, I only provided the graphs to show the data on a website that's dedicated to fighting against fluoridated water.

You may think it's just another rational excuse for me by saying "I don't want to debate with Crater because he always finds someway to disprove of someone's opinion." No, that is definitely not the case. Even if you chose to refuse the facts I've given, at least I know that the information is still out there and readily available, and you've looked -- hell, even glanced at it.

If by "little details" you mean that you are completely wrong about whether fluoride helps tooth decay, sure. I was planning to write a rebuttal, but you seem to be functionally illiterate. Have these videos linked in the comments of that previous one instead:



Otto, if you have any questions about the topic, or you believed anything at all from Drai's video, let me know and I'll go over them for you. I'm not going to go through it point by point otherwise, but I recommend you watch the first video I linked.

[Duel of Fates]

Your humility knows no bounds.

[CommanderOtto]

I really don't know what to think. This is what has crossed my mind so far:

1.If natural water has fluoride in many places of the world, then why would it be harmful if it is added in fluoride deficient water? As long as the public water authorities add it to water in the same levels as found in natural water, then there really is no problem. Of course, people make mistakes, and someone could accidentally dump an extra bag of fluoride in the tanks, but I don't think the government would actually add excessive amounts on purpose, so no big deal there.

2. on the other hand, if there are so few benefits of adding fluoride, then why artificially add it in the first place? Why go through so much trouble if people are so concerned about something so small? The guy in crater's video said fluoride water reduced caries up to 60%, when Drai just pointed out with those graphs that tooth decay was being reduced before fluoride was added anyway.

basically, I don't think adding fluoride is harmful, but if people hate it so much, and the benefits are so small, then why add it?


although, I must add, Drai's video pointed out that fluoride water causes cancer and lowers IQ levels. I wonder if that's true? Maybe there's something Crater could shed some light on.

[Darth Crater]

2. on the other hand, if there are so few benefits of adding fluoride, then why artificially add it in the first place? Why go through so much trouble if people are so concerned about something so small? The guy in crater's video said fluoride water reduced caries up to 60%, when Drai just pointed out with those graphs that tooth decay was being reduced before fluoride was added anyway.

Why do you assume the benefits are few? My previous post pointed out the flaws in those graphs, and I didn't even take into account natural fluoride levels (which I learned about from the first video I linked). Even then, a quick look at the second graph shows a decrease of ~1 decayed tooth per child caused by the introduction of fluoridated water. (I can go into more detail if you want.)

although, I must add, Drai's video pointed out that fluoride water causes cancer and lowers IQ levels. I wonder if that's true? Maybe there's something Crater could shed some light on.

I'll look at this for you tomorrow. I doubt they're reputable studies about the dosages in tap water, but we'll see.

[Draigun]

If by "little details" you mean that you are completely wrong about whether fluoride helps tooth decay, sure. I was planning to write a rebuttal, but you seem to be functionally illiterate.

I believe this is where common sense comes in. Have you forgot that water is a basic need? You obviously have, because you are viewing everything from the perspective of a scientist. Most scientist completely forget about common sense because they are far too deep within the matter itself. This is what happens when you combine science with logic.

Functional illiteracy has nothing to do with what I've said in the posts I've made. If you truly believe that's what dictates the intelligence of text coming from the Internet, than I suggest you re-think this stance. Also, didn't you mention somewhere that never to believe anything unless there are facts and evidence? Seem's you're contradicting yourself since you assumed I was a functional illiterate.

Crater, your opinions are influenced by society heavily, and it simply shows that you cannot think for yourself and what you believe is right; I wouldn't take that as an insult, but rather, as a gift from one who is not bound by such limitations put in place.

The main issue here is that Crater is countering my points with research that fails to include common sense - it's common sense that an industry that produces pollutants and fertilizer make the same stuff that is in your fluoridated water, should be generally regarded as bad.

Also, something to think about: Even if the studies show that fluoride, when ingested, is not poisonous, there has been no study on the long-term effects for the human body. It's impossible for science to do long-term studies. Just like my video mentioned: Fifty-percent of the ingested fluoride from water is excreted, the other half is stored in the body. When you add up all of the years you've been drinking that chemical, you start to wonder what happens then. Certainly, scientists haven't performed studies on a single individual for over 30 years...

[CommanderOtto]

well, you are right, less caries by 60% is a big deal.

I read the article from Dental Watch that crater posted. It looks good and has many sources. It also pointed out there was no real reason to think that it could cause cancer or bone problems and cited when saying it. But the graph by Drai contains information from the World Health Organization regarding tooth decay and when comparing the data from Japan (definitely no fluoride) with other countries, we can see the decay rates are somewhat similar. I don't think W.H.O is wrong.

and I also have some doubts if it really brings 60% less caries, but i'm sure there must be some credible study out there, I just don't know where to look.

If crater finds that info, i'm convinced lol

[Darth Crater]

although, I must add, Drai's video pointed out that fluoride water causes cancer and lowers IQ levels. I wonder if that's true? Maybe there's something Crater could shed some light on.

I'll look at this for you tomorrow. I doubt they're reputable studies about the dosages in tap water, but we'll see.

Alright, I wasted five minutes watching the video. It was as manipulative as I suspected it would be, and didn't directly provide the sources for anything. It also repeated the falsehood about the aluminum industry, which I debunked in the last thread. Still, I found the studies it was talking about.

For cancer, specifically osteosarcoma, there was indeed a study (Bassin, 2006) that suggested that fluoride caused an increased rate of incidence in males. However, the follow-up studies I can find which have taken place since then (including these three from 2011) seem to indicate that there is no correlation. The Australian government agrees. Note that even Bassin's study found the correlation in only one gender and explicitly pointed out that more research was needed before reaching a conclusion.

As for IQ - here's links to an article about it and the paper itself (click "PDF version" at the bottom for the full text). The study was done in areas of China and Iran with naturally high fluoride levels. "High" here isn't explicitly defined, but works out to anywhere between three and ten times the recommended concentration in the US (which is now 0.7 mg/L). Their "reference," or low-fluoride, groups had concentrations more similar to the US. While they didn't rule out factors such as other contaminants, this paper makes a strong case for a correlation between high levels of fluoride and lower IQ. This does not indicate that a connection exists at lower levels such as ours (see that video I posted about dosages).

I looked for the source of Drai's graph, but I haven't found it yet, sorry. Remember, though, that fluoridated toothpaste and general dental care reduce these rates also. Fluoridated water is most effective in areas where these are not available due to poverty or lack of infrastructure (which, sadly, still includes much of the US).

I believe this is where common sense comes in.

No. No, it really isn't. What you call "common sense" is not a substitute for actual research. It certainly is not superior to actual research. Believe me, I'm not dismissing this out of hand - my "common sense" is giving me the same warnings. I've seriously checked out everything you posted, because if and only if fluoride is actually poisoning us, I want to believe it is and take steps to stop it. Problem is, the evidence and trustworthy sources say it isn't.

Crater, your opinions are influenced by society heavily, and it simply shows that you cannot think for yourself and what you believe is right; I wouldn't take that as an insult, but rather, as a gift from one who is not bound by such limitations put in place.

You're making an awful lot of assumptions about me here, but that's not why I quoted this. I quoted this because this is where you display your true motivations, whether you think you did or not. You want to be special, to be elite, to be smarter than the sheep around you. This is a common desire, but a dangerous one. Don't favor the "alternative" hypothesis just because the "mainstream" rejects it. Don't forget that the "mainstream" has been looked at and accepted by a large number of people who are smarter than either of us.

[[m'kay]]

Crater, your opinions are influenced by society heavily, and it simply shows that you cannot think for yourself and what you believe is right; I wouldn't take that as an insult, but rather, as a gift from one who is not bound by such limitations put in place.

Scientists everywhere are struggling to accurately graph the smugness of this statement, to varying results. One team constructed a massive network of supercomputers stretching all the way across Europe, but even after months of number crunching have yet to come up with an accurate measure. Another developed a new, fully functional artificial intelligence, which has cured cancer and mapped the entire human genome, but remains stumped by this monumental task. Another team pissed all over itself and then started throwing defecate at passersby, and they have not only managed to solve this mystery, but have proven that fluoride is poisonous!



The answer is very. It is very smug.

[THEWULFMAN]

I think what I need to take from this is that I need to stop trusting RT as a source of news. Used to really like their stuff. Shame.

By the way, thanks Crater for those videos.