People against Vaccines

[Duel of Fates]

You realize it's impossible to hold a sound, mature argument with these people, right? Or perhaps you haven't been here long enough. Don't even waste your time with long, thought-out responses. They'll get you nowhere unless you're a neoconservative, conspiracy-theory-loving cynic who constantly believes the world is doomed to Armageddon in a few years.

"These people"? Really? I merely expressed an opinion based on what Mandy asked at the beginning of this thread. And opinion is just that, an opinion based on life experience, education, and personal belief. If you do not agree with someone's opinion, that is cool. Attacking people with names, generalizations with no personal knowledge of the individuals, and a snarky attitude does not promote open discussion. Then you get all uppity when they respond in kind? Baiting an argument like that keeps you from taking the high road when the conversation sours to this point. Instead of willing to be open to other people's ideas, you show a closed mindedness that is truly breathtaking.

"These people" indeed.

[11_Panama_]

Right Duel. And that comes from a guy that only shows up to shoot everyone's opinions and experiences down. Go figure.

[Jango<9thAC-Gen>]

Six pages read, jeez.

Anyway, from what I've read there's some fact, myth and down right obsurdity to what I've read. Vaccines are important, they're one of the biggest reasons mankind has been able to increase its lifespan and the biggest reason why the infant mortality rate has dropped so sharply. What Nite said is true, the number of vaccines given to a child born today is significantly higher than 20 years ago. There are several reasons why, virologist are realizing that some vaccines need a booster and some are more effective when given in stages. Many of the vaccines on the CDC's recommended vaccine schedule are boosters or multi-stage vaccines. Many of the vaccines provide a lifetime of protection while others only benefit a certain age. Infants receive several vaccines that provide no life long benefit but are needed to prevent dangerous infections that can cause severe dehydration through vommiting and diarrhea. Having the vericella (chicken pox) vaccine is important because it reduces the chances your child might experience a shingles outbreak as an adult. Many of the vaccines people received where vaccines against common childhood illness that have the highest mortality rate for those ages. The DTaP vaccine, one which is given five times before the age of 18, is a booster that prevents whooping cough and croup two deadly childhood illnesses.

As for influenza vaccines there are several reasons for what people experience. Every year the CDC takes the common strains of A, B and H1N1 from the previous flu season and creates vaccines. These vaccines are then administered for the next flu season. The reason why people who have been vaccinated end up contracting a strain of the flu is usually for two possible reason. Either they already had the flu when they received their vaccination (influenza has about a 7 day incubation period before symptoms begin to appear and vaccine takes 7 days before its considered effective against influenza) making vaccination pointless or they received vaccination early but the virus has mutated into a strain that the vaccine is not effect against. Other reasons might be they have a reaction to what's contained in the vaccine, usually happens within a day or two after vaccination; nausea, diarrhea but its not the flu. The elderly, small children and those whose immune systems are compromised (HIV/AIDS, those taking immunosuppressants) should still receive a yearly influenza vaccine because of the dangers associated with the dehydration from the vommiting and diarrhea.

Getting vaccinated is ultimately up to the individual or parent. However, in my opinion not getting vaccinated because you're worried some pharmaceutical company will make money off it is just silly. Most if not all insurances cover vaccines and most influenza vaccines go for about $25US and even some business give them to employees for free. I, personally, did not get the yearly flu vaccine because it wasn't a requirement from my employer. I'm a young and healthy adult and with vaccine shortages I thought it better to save the one I would use for someone who could really use it. More people want preventative options in healthcare, vaccines are one of those options.

[Yanoda]

I don't believe vaccines are 'dead' viruses, but a 'sampling' of the virus that your body's immune system can handle and fight on a fair level, so that it can 'remember just how' to destroy a particular virus should it encounter it on an even greater infectious level in the future. If a virus is dead, what is there to fight?

Believing in something or not is irrelevant to what is actually happening or actual facts. An opinion on something does not make it a fact.

I apologize if I find it rude/ridiculous/insulting for someone who isn't a parent to make a remark that insults the intelligence of us that are parents. When you are not a parent you don't know the choices we face and the decisions we have to make. They are tough, brutal, and can be the difference between life, death, or disability. Basically Samonuh thinks that the only people that know anything about the safety/efficacy of vaccines are their developers and producers.. And that parents are just idiots for questioning them and don't know a lick of what they are talking about.

No, parents should research and speak with professionals in the field to find the best course of action. Unless the parent is a professional in the medical field, they indeed do not know everything and should not make decisions without discussing with trained professionals. Nite, you do not know what everyone experienced through life and you cannot assume that when you're a parent, you automatically have more experience in a subject - that is a false assumption.

The right to choose what vaccines (if any) to give your children is a hot button topic amongst parents who live a crunchier lifestyle. It is one that will get a lot of mothers fired up. Same goes for circumcision, the right to breastfeed in public, and appropriate attachment parenting techniques. You have to expect this when it comes to certain topics.

That does not mean the parents (actual adults) are free to insult others just because they hold a different view.

And I don't have time to completely reply to ALL of your points, Yanoda, but there is NO REASON to vaccinate a newborn baby for a sexually transmitted disease.. and Hep B is the sexually transmitted strain of the hepatitis virus. Its given in the hospital soon after birth, along with a vitamin k shot. And the reason they give vitamin k shots is to combat bleeding in circumcised boys and they do it for boys and girls as a way of covering up the risks of circumcision.

Sexually transmitted diseases are not solely transmitted during sex. They also transmit through blood (like when injured for example), same goes with AIDS. This is why many professionals do not recommend sharing razor blades, having tattoos also have a risk of transmitting them (which has happened), dialysis and transfusions can cause someone to be infected. Even sharing a tooth brush can cause it to transmit to another individual. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0001324/
Thus, there is every reason to vaccinate children for these diseases ASAP.
What is the reason for mentioning the Vitamin K shot when you just state the reasons why it is being used?

And those "preservatives" (aluminum, thimerosal, and formaldehyde, aren't as safe as you think.) And have you actually read the Vaccine Book by Dr. Sears or are you going off information being passed around on the internet? Dr. Sears book outlines the history of vaccines, how they're made, ingredients, and what forms they're available in. His book isn't just his opinion on what he recommends, but I'd trust him more than a lot of other doctors who simply want to practice "herd immunity".

I never said they are safe, but studies indicate that over exposure is unlikely in cases with Vaccines. Again, I recommend reading http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/c ... /1394.full and http://www.chop.edu/service/vaccine-edu ... ehyde.html if you want to be as informed as possible on scientific studies/research concerning this subject.
Concerning Dr. Sears... where to begin...
Here is a detailed article deconstructing points on Dr. Sears' 'alternative vaccine schedule'. http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/c ... /e164.full I recommend reading this if you wish to be as informed as possible.
Your so called "herd immunity" is the consensus of majority of medical specialists that formulate the plans to provide the best, and most effective way to prevent diseases and unnecessary harm. Dr. Sears is in the vast minority, I prefer to stick with the professionals that do know what they are doing and follow the scientific method.

I believe that some illness are too risky to NOT vaccinate against, but the problem today is with MODERN vaccines (in the last 15 years) is they have came up with super-combos. My middle and my youngest brother were given two different regimes in vaccines and they are only 3 years apart. The older of the two was given (what has been found out to be safer) single dose vaccines and the younger was given some of the super-combos.

Vaccines USED TO BE about protecting the masses and eradication of deadly illnesses. However now the companies that make them have turn them into money making machines. They still have to make the single dose vaccines, but they cost more.. And insurance companies can choose what they pay for..

The reason why they are more expensive is because they have to prepare the shots for each single vaccine. Combining two vaccines into one, reduces the amount of resources, energy, transportation and overall cost. It is the choice of the Insurance Companies on what they want to cover, if it is not in the insurance plan then they are not forced to pay for them. If you do not like that, then try to find a new insurance company. Unless you want the government to set regulations on the insurance companies to force them to include these in their plans and have them pay the costs for the vaccines...

Nite, I may not be as old or have the same amount of 'experience' as you, but I have a feeling that you do not know the full extent on the subject. So I recommend intently reading through the links I provided.

My whole post was about "TRUST", nothing more.. nothing less. You failed to understand where I was going with it... and you got kinda' butthurt because I said Sam is just a kid in his late teens. Guess what? Not everything that we learned in school has relation to real life. And taking a class at the university for a year does NOT make you a freakin' expert all of the sudden. There is a thing called "life experiences" and I guarantee you that someone that is over 30-40 yrs old, has them.. in bigger quantities than a first year college kid.

Trust in this context is irrelevant today. Since everyone is free to search up and find studies on the subject (like Vaccines). Unfortunately, it is now the tendency of the average Joe to think they know much more than someone who studied and focuses on the specific subject for many years. Several pseudo scientists are popping up and are muddling up the facts on what is currently known in the scientific community, which can mislead many consumers.
Thus, I would still rather be treated by a trained student in the medical field at 21 over the average Joe at 40 who never studied the subject. If you wish to support your argument the next time you are severely ill, then visit your neighbor who doesn't have any education on that field over a young doctor and see what will happen. Otherwise, your argument is (I'm sorry to say) absurd.

You realize it's impossible to hold a sound, mature argument with these people, right? Or perhaps you haven't been here long enough. Don't even waste your time with long, thought-out responses. They'll get you nowhere unless you're a neoconservative, conspiracy-theory-loving cynic who constantly believes the world is doomed to Armageddon in a few years.

"These people"? Really? I merely expressed an opinion based on what Mandy asked at the beginning of this thread. And opinion is just that, an opinion based on life experience, education, and personal belief. If you do not agree with someone's opinion, that is cool. Attacking people with names, generalizations with no personal knowledge of the individuals, and a snarky attitude does not promote open discussion. Then you get all uppity when they respond in kind? Baiting an argument like that keeps you from taking the high road when the conversation sours to this point. Instead of willing to be open to other people's ideas, you show a closed mindedness that is truly breathtaking.

"These people" indeed.

To be fair, it were the very people who Samonuh is referring to who started with the belittling and name calling, not the other way as you assume. Examples:

So one of my friends on my news feed on FB posted this article http://www.realfarmacy.com/confirmed-in ... paralysis/
Basically it asserts that because there were nearly 50,000 incidents of vaccine induced illness that it was a failure. But going with the 170 million administered shots that's literally not even a tenth of a percent. I just don't understand how in this age that people can still be so phobic to science.

Don't have kids?

And I love it when some spoiled rotten brat (who doesn't have kids) can throw verbal rocks at those of us with kids. Who the heck made you judge and jury?? Why do you think you have the right to call us out when you don't even deal with the responsibilities that us have. Eat a rotten turd!!!
And to high heavens I will not tolerate some spoiled rotten punk try to belittle me for it.. kick bricks, Samonuh!

I love how you all act like you know more than people who have spent their lives dedicated to researching and formulating these vaccines.

...You have no idea what you are talking about, and you make yourself look like total douschebag. End.

Right Duel. And that comes from a guy that only shows up to shoot everyone's opinions and experiences down. Go figure.

Double standard, Panama?

So I advise everyone (on both sides) to calm down and not resort to name calling or ridiculing the person (or people) you disagree with.

Furthermore, opinions shouldn't be held in high regard as compared to scientific studies and facts.

[CommanderOtto]

good comments yanoda... but I just want to point out that pan already apologized.... just saying.

Ok, it's the next day, and I'm well rested. I want to apologize for the name calling, Outrider.

[Duel of Fates]

Yan, welcome back, since I forgot to say it before.

My comment about being a parent was not intended to be a slight, nor a derogatory comment on Mandy. I merely was pointing out that when it comes to taking vaccines, it is easy to say, "ya, I will take the chance. It is my body and I can live with the consequences if something were to happen to me." It is not so easy to say that about giving something unknown and possibly harmful to the child you are raising. If someone took that as a slight, well, you really need to get out more and get some fresh air and thicken up the skin there.

When I see people refer to others as "Those people", "These people", or "You people", you are not open to different opinions. You see the world as you and what you believe. The rest of the world that might not hold with your opinion is looked down upon? I find that to be condescending and a little arrogant, to say the least.

[11_Panama_]

.. and this is why I stay out of these serious discussions.. they never end well. I'm just trying to give a different point of view. After all, nothing is the same from person to person. Individual perspectives on any given subject will always give you different outcome.. regardless of what is true. A terrorist is someone's hero. My point? No one here can say anyone is wrong.. and no one here is an expert in vaccinations. So make your point without stepping on someone else's. toes please. And Yan.. what do you mean that my point on "truth" is absurd? Truth is not important?

[Mandalore]

For the record I thought duels comment meant exactly what he just explained. That being objective and scientific when the health of your child isn't at risk represents a much different position than if I had children.

That being said, I do by and large trust scientists as that profession has greatly increased quality of life. And even though I have had unintended long term side effects from prescription drugs it's not like I blame my doctor. I understand that there are inherent risks to just about every action in life.

Forbes apparently decided to put up an article about vaccines given the recent outbreak due to those silly people in Texas. http://www.forbes.com/sites/matthewherp ... our-world/

[WD-40]

I don't believe vaccines are 'dead' viruses, but a 'sampling' of the virus that your body's immune system can handle and fight on a fair level, so that it can 'remember just how' to destroy a particular virus should it encounter it on an even greater infectious level in the future. If a virus is dead, what is there to fight?

Believing in something or not is irrelevant to what is actually happening or actual facts. An opinion on something does not make it a fact..

No Shiite Sherlock! That's what makes a 'belief' an 'opinion'!...Which, BTW, I'm entitled to have.

[Son]

I don't believe vaccines are 'dead' viruses, but a 'sampling' of the virus that your body's immune system can handle and fight on a fair level, so that it can 'remember just how' to destroy a particular virus should it encounter it on an even greater infectious level in the future. If a virus is dead, what is there to fight?

Believing in something or not is irrelevant to what is actually happening or actual facts. An opinion on something does not make it a fact..

No Shiite Sherlock! That's what makes a 'belief' an 'opinion'!...Which, BTW, I'm entitled to have.

I think this was mentioned somewhere but... Vaccines are both dead viruses and weakened viruses. My wife has to take the dead flu vaccine due to a weakened immune system. Typically people get the weakened version of the vaccine.