Obamacare

[(SWGO)DesertEagle]

I heard something interesting today.

Apparently, the penalty for not getting insurance is not subject to the usual IRS enforcement regulations. That means that, beyond seizing your refund (if you have one), they actually cannot make you pay the penalty.

So if you do things just right and do your withholdings in such a way as to not be due a refund, you don't have to get health insurance :P

[Duel of Fates]

Despite the tremendous lead the United States has in terms of GNP and GDP (note - not P/Capi.), the entrenched medical culture - one in which private practice is championed in culmination with the belief in the frivolity of Healthcare on top of the lack of standardization across states makes our system open to quite a bit of potential waste and ineffectiveness.

And instead of dealing with the waste and ineffectiveness in an efficient and timely manner, our glorious leaders decided to put in place a bigger and more inefficient law that will be open to fraud, personal security breaches, and even more waste. And they decided to let the IRS run it? No problems there. The problem with your type of thinking is that we can legislate ourselves into an utopia. It would be nice if everyone paid into it and everyone was covered. Unfortunately the truth is, is that many people will find loopholes, or be given exemptions and the regular Joes that are working to feed their families will be forced to pay more for coverage they do not want, nor need, to cover the slackasses that will not pay into it. Also, there will be scammers, cheaters and con artists willing to bilk the government any way they can. It will lead to more waste and ineffectiveness.

Healthcare is not a "right" like Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness. It is a man made "right" that can be taken away by men.

[MATTHEW'S_DAD]

Healthcare is not a "right" like Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness. It is a man made "right" that can be taken away by men.

+1

[(SWGO)SirPepsi]

And instead of dealing with the waste and ineffectiveness in an efficient and timely manner, our glorious leaders decided to put in place a bigger and more inefficient law that will be open to fraud, personal security breaches, and even more waste. And they decided to let the IRS run it? No problems there. The problem with your type of thinking is that we can legislate ourselves into an utopia. It would be nice if everyone paid into it and everyone was covered. Unfortunately the truth is, is that many people will find loopholes, or be given exemptions and the regular Joes that are working to feed their families will be forced to pay more for coverage they do not want, nor need, to cover the slackasses that will not pay into it. Also, there will be scammers, cheaters and con artists willing to bilk the government any way they can. It will lead to more waste and ineffectiveness.

Healthcare is not a "right" like Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness. It is a man made "right" that can be taken away by men.

I am firm in my belief that Healthcare is a right of all citizens of the United States of America, as it should be in any, modern First World Nation. This ideological difference between you and I will prevent us from ever fully compromising on the issue, and I accept this, but I've decided to let you know what my convictions are - to help elucidate why I think the way I do.

Contrarily, however, I don't believe the Government can legislate our the perfect society - but change has to begin somewhere - and winning over the hearts and minds of the people can be accomplished by demonstrating the effectiveness of Universal Health Care. I do not yet know whether I support such a drastic shift in US policy, but I do know that something must be changed - private health insurance companies (whose goal is to turn a profit) cannot be expected to best manage healthcare, which, I believe, is an intrinsic right. It is careless for a society like ours to buy so fully into the scam most insurance companies run each year. Please, read this.

[Duel of Fates]

Sure. As soon as you read the Bible and the Constitution of the United States of America.

Then we can discuss the difference between man made rights and God given Rights.

[[NH]Shadow]

Sure. As soon as you read the Bible and the Constitution of the United States of America.

Then we can discuss the difference between man made rights and God given Rights.

+1

[(SWGO)DesertEagle]

Sure. As soon as you read the Bible and the Constitution of the United States of America.

Then we can discuss the difference between man made rights and God given Rights.

+1

I believe everyone should have access to healthcare but that insurance companies should be able to make a reasonable profit (without gouging).

[-)G(-Sawyer]

Right V Left discussions seldom get anywhere just like this one, which is why when running a town, city, country or world you need to only work in the middle and leave hard line right and left views were they belong, in forums like this one.
I live my life with more conservative views then anything else, but I have left wing views when it comes to society. Living in the UK may have a lot to do with that. Like having a national Health Service for over sixty years and seeing how that works good or bad. Also knowing that a society needs healthy people to function well. And as posted by others on this topic the very clear proof of what could happen if the UK adopted the US style of healthcare, a right wing stance that could also lead us to having one of the most expensive systems and worse systems like what the US has now.

Obama care may well end up being hopeless but some more progressive peeps might just think at least its a start, a push in the right direction or just not going along with the terrible situation the US is in now. Trouble is I doubt now you could ever change it that much because once you invite insurance company's to run health care its unlikely they will give up such a valuable market.

[(SWGO)SirPepsi]

Sure. As soon as you read the Bible and the Constitution of the United States of America.

Then we can discuss the difference between man made rights and God given Rights.

In addition, the Constitution allows the government to regulate inter-state commerce. Health Insurance companies operate nationwide...subsequently, government has the ability to place checks on the industry.

Please don't say anything about original intent, as I suspect you will. Interpretation of the Constitution is fluid and has shifted throughout the ages. That, in culmination with the inclusion of an Amendment process, is indicative of the term "Living Document."

[Bryant]

Sure. As soon as you read the Bible and the Constitution of the United States of America.

Then we can discuss the difference between man made rights and God given Rights.

In addition, the Constitution allows the government to regulate inter-state commerce. Health Insurance companies operate nationwide...subsequently, government has the ability to place checks on the industry.

Please don't say anything about original intent, as I suspect you will. Interpretation of the Constitution is fluid and has shifted throughout the ages. That, in culmination with the inclusion of an Amendment process, is indicative of the term "Living Document."

Health Insurance doesn't operate across state lines, thus is NOT subject to inter-state commerce. Obamacare is being primarily operated through the taxing clause.

Under what right can you ban original intent? It has very much to do with what our founders valued and thought would work. It also gives us an idea of how things have changed and what effect it has. It can help us think more about why they were written in the first place. The Amendment process is also there for a reason and not to be just indicative of something, which suggest that currently written language should actually be more rigid because there is process for change.

The government will always seek to take power from where it has none/little. This is an intrinsic characteristic of any government. States are suppose to have the majority of power in the US (see 10th amendment and articles of confederation), yet it is always neglected. Thus all healthcare related things should naturally be under state jurisdiction. Obamacare is primarily used to spread the influence of government, create dependency and centralize power. That's why they don't even care what's in it, because it's not the content but breadth of power that they care about - constantly disguised with colorful words.

What happened to personal responsibility and only helping those that are truly in need?