Obamacare

[(SWGO)SirPepsi]

I have said it many times. Why you do not get it is beyond me?
Open the borders and restrictions that inhibit a free market insurance. Allow the competition of the insurance companies to drive the costs down. Limit the amounts awarded in malpractice lawsuits, reducing the cost of the physicians and the hospitals, also allowing for the reduction of medical bills. Take out the corruption inherited in the Medicare and Medicaid welfare systems so they run cleaner and more efficiently. Quit throwing tons of money at waste, just so the few who were supposed to get some, get some. Have the FDA crack down on major drug companies that falsify testing results just so they can line their pockets by selling bad drugs, which cause more problems for patients.

Duel, contrary to what you may think, I am not an idiot - I know exactly what your proposing, but it doesn't work. Taking the government out of Health Care does not provide for the competition you are talking about. Rates will not go down - don't you see? The insurance companies want high rates because if the average person can't afford to pay out of pocket for doctor's visits or a needed operation, he has to buy insurance! This "free-market" delusion you are experiencing does not contribute to better care! While capitalist principles and a less regulated market may be beneficial for a particular industry (say, manufacturing), Medical Care is not one of them! Without government programs, private Health Insurance companies don't need to cover everything they should. (e.g. Bone Marrow Transplant - effective operation, technology progressed to the point it is reliable, but still very expensive b/c of equipment, anesthesiologists, hospitalization, etc. - Insurance companies will decide not to cover it), and guess what! There is nothing to stop them or hold them accountable - the only way people get access to this operation? Pay out of pocket because Private Health Insurance will wash its hands of the entire thing.

They are in the game to turn a profit! That means they will use every legal "out" at their disposal, and noting their huge lobby in Congress, there are gonna be a lot. They will find excuses not to pay legitimate claims, reasons not to cover this operation or that drug, reasons to refuse to pay for visits to this doctor instead of the other, etc.

For those that cannot obtain healthcare on their own (which was around 15%) can sign up for government healthcare and pay into a system where you have personalized medical insurance accounts. It would be a voluntary healthcare system, and you can opt out of it at any time, or never use it if you feel you do not need it.

See, if you do not pay into the system, the insurance is not there for you. That is how it works. You cannot get something for nothing.

Healthcare is not a Right. That is your problem.

Really? So a child born with Kawasaki Disease into a family that CHOSE not to pay for Health Care does what? Does he not receive treatment because his parents CHOSE not to pay into the "personalized insurance account" you mentioned?

(These are just a few things that come to the top of my mind. I am sure I am missing some key things, but it boils down to common sense and getting the corruption out of the system. You do not need to dictate to the citizens, what insurance they "need" and at what price the government decides is fair. Again, it is unconstitutional for any government to force someone to buy a product, and force a company to sell a product. That is fascism. It didn't work for the Nazi's, and it won't work here.)

I have a question or two for you. Progressive? What are you trying to Progress to? What is it you see for the future of America in say 20 years, 50 years, and 100 years? I highly doubt it will be anything resembling the America that had the greatest military, the greatest economy, the best healthcare, and the richest free capitalism in the world.

Yes! I see the United States leading the world in Human Rights, Environmental Concern, Economic Surplus, HEALTHCARE, etc. I'm not sure how we'll get there yet, but I know it begins with the desire to change.

[(SWGO)SirPepsi]

Our laws require Health Insurance companies to maximize profit for shareholders. This creates an intolerable conflict of interest. To keep the private sector alive, I believe state trade barriers should be dropped, but that health insurance be a non-profit section of each insurance company's business.

(Sorry for the double-post)

[MATTHEW'S_DAD]

What would you propose we do to ensure that all Americans have access to quality care? If you have managed to develop successful alternatives to Medicaid and Medicare, I am perfectly willing to listen. In the meantime, however, we can't trust private companies to care for the poor or provide affordable plans that cover essential conditions.

These are the most retarded statements posted so far.

First, I propose that all Americans HAVE access to quality care. Like everything else of quality, you are expected to pay for it. Not paying for it is called stealing. Forcing someone else pay for it is called robbery. Having someone else pay for it willingly is called charity. Having the government pay for it is called socialism. Getting it for free is called La La Land.

Second, covering the poor is EXACTLY what Medicare and Medicaid was created for. Nearly 50 years ago some liberal idiot pushed through a health care program to expand Social Security that all Americans would be required to pay into to provide basic quality health care for the poor and elderly. So the solution is to just make it bigger? Jesus Christ, someone spot the white elephant in the room! Why more folks can't see that this experiment has been tried before and failed, I can't understand.

Finally, you seem to think it would be better to trust politicians and bureaucrats to handle large amounts of money honestly, openly and with the goal of helping the disenfranchised? (disenfranchised = no vote)

What you want is free health care cause it's difficult to afford. Instead of making it easier to give to charities that provide free health care or make it easier for those charities to exist and flourish, you'd rather force the money out of peoples pockets and spend it the way you think is best.

That's larceny and hubris.

Brilliant post.

[ProfessorDreadNaught]

the obamacare system might be crap, but the taxing of these devices doesn't even tickle the companies that produce them. The problem with healthcare is that the profit margin is so huge in comparison to everything else, it is ridiculous. The same devices are way less expensive in other countries. At least now the government will get some cash out of it. Besides, it takes time for the companies to pass the tax to the consumer. While they are deciding how to pass the cost to us, the government gets some bucks. Of course, it will balance out sometime, but the hate towards the taxing of those devices is too exaggerated by politicians.

Eh...you touched on the true solution (barely) but crapped it up with wishy washy tax talk. You almost got it though, something constructive, fix health care cost drivers instead of giving everyone insurance. Even if you only touched on it by accident I'll run with it and give you credit for the handoff. See if you can figure out where your post fits with the next part of mine.

First,Medical patents are one of the biggest drivers of cost in today's health care environment. Patents are intended to protect investments in research and development. If I spend a billion dollars working on a design for an artificial heart, when I perfect it, it's not fair for someone with none of that investment costs to produce the item using my specs and undercut my sales. If I only sell one, it needs to cost more than a billion dollars regardless of manufacturing costs for me just to break even. A patent filed in the US lasts for 20 years regardless if I sell 0 or a million units.

I propose that medical patents do NOT expire based on time limits, but rather by investment return. If I invest one billion developing my artificial heart, my patent expires when i have sales of one billion and one dollars on that product. Now that my investment has been protected I should be expected to compete fairly with anyone willing to make and sell the product.

I've others, but I think they deserve their own thread.

[(SWGO)DesertEagle]

What would you propose we do to ensure that all Americans have access to quality care? If you have managed to develop successful alternatives to Medicaid and Medicare, I am perfectly willing to listen. In the meantime, however, we can't trust private companies to care for the poor or provide affordable plans that cover essential conditions.

These are the most retarded statements posted so far.

First, I propose that all Americans HAVE access to quality care. Like everything else of quality, you are expected to pay for it. Not paying for it is called stealing. Forcing someone else pay for it is called robbery. Having someone else pay for it willingly is called charity. Having the government pay for it is called socialism. Getting it for free is called La La Land.

Second, covering the poor is EXACTLY what Medicare and Medicaid was created for. Nearly 50 years ago some liberal idiot pushed through a health care program to expand Social Security that all Americans would be required to pay into to provide basic quality health care for the poor and elderly. So the solution is to just make it bigger? Jesus Christ, someone spot the white elephant in the room! Why more folks can't see that this experiment has been tried before and failed, I can't understand.

Finally, you seem to think it would be better to trust politicians and bureaucrats to handle large amounts of money honestly, openly and with the goal of helping the disenfranchised? (disenfranchised = no vote)

What you want is free health care cause it's difficult to afford. Instead of making it easier to give to charities that provide free health care or make it easier for those charities to exist and flourish, you'd rather force the money out of peoples pockets and spend it the way you think is best.

That's larceny and hubris.

Well said. I particularly like this:

First, I propose that all Americans HAVE access to quality care. Like everything else of quality, you are expected to pay for it. Not paying for it is called stealing. Forcing someone else pay for it is called robbery. Having someone else pay for it willingly is called charity. Having the government pay for it is called socialism. Getting it for free is called La La Land.

[(SWGO)SirPepsi]

Why don't any of you address the arguments I made within my last two posts? Anyone care to comment on my suggestion or like to agree with my observations?

Or will you ignore them because you realize you have nothing to counter them with. Each of the suggestions made by Duel and "Professor" Dread here are laughably impractical, but it seems that the choir will continue to sing hymns of prayer for them regardless.

[Duel of Fates]

Because the "arguments" that you make are "what ifs?". I would love to answer every question you have, but I have refrained from answering the "what ifs?" that you constantly throw around like a president without a teleprompter. I have stated it quite clearly, and you, being a neo socialist, anti capitalistic, big government drone, unemployed, under educated, and full of misinformation, refuse to face facts. You can keep beating the dead horse, but all you are getting is flies and stink. I cannot wait until you join the workforce, own or rent your own space, and try to pay bills. Socialism might get you some hand outs from the government, but you will be selling your soul for scraps "they" decide is "good" for you, oh, and it won't be for free.

Here Pepsi, riddle me this. Why haven't you answered the questions put to you? I am really curious why you glossed over MD's question about the veteran denied medical benefits? Most of the crap you have been spewing over the last few days, weeks, oh hell, months I can find on Bill Maher's crap ass show on HBO. Full of vitriol and little substance.

Obamacare is a flawed, unconstitutional, behemoth of a law meant to take liberty and money from the citizens and redistribute it. Socialism. It should be repealed. Anyone that looks at it and goes "hmmm, its ok, just need a better website" is fooling themselves and no one else.

A healthcare system based on free market capitalism, open to all insurance companies, over state lines and markets, would work without the meddling of politicians only interested in getting their cut.

And as I said before, and Dread has pointed out, there are many cost effective ways to lower the medical costs, thereby making it more affordable to everyone that wants to buy into insurance. Those that cannot, well, those are the ones that will have to rely on the charity, and good will of the people, not the government.

Now, I am going to go spend time with my family. Take your high and mighty, (misplaced) sense of righteousness and shove it up your

[(SWGO)SirPepsi]

Because the "arguments" that you make are "what ifs?". I would love to answer every question you have, but I have refrained from answering the "what ifs?" that you constantly throw around like a president without a teleprompter. I have stated it quite clearly, and you, being a neo socialist, anti capitalistic, big government drone, unemployed, under educated, and full of misinformation, refuse to face facts. You can keep beating the dead horse, but all you are getting is flies and stink. I cannot wait until you join the workforce, own or rent your own space, and try to pay bills. Socialism might get you some hand outs from the government, but you will be selling your soul for scraps "they" decide is "good" for you, oh, and it won't be for free.

Here Pepsi, riddle me this. Why haven't you answered the questions put to you? I am really curious why you glossed over MD's question about the veteran denied medical benefits? Most of the crap you have been spewing over the last few days, weeks, oh hell, months I can find on Bill Maher's crap ass show on HBO. Full of vitriol and little substance.

Obamacare is a flawed, unconstitutional, behemoth of a law meant to take liberty and money from the citizens and redistribute it. Socialism. It should be repealed. Anyone that looks at it and goes "hmmm, its ok, just need a better website" is fooling themselves and no one else.

A healthcare system based on free market capitalism, open to all insurance companies, over state lines and markets, would work without the meddling of politicians only interested in getting their cut.

And as I said before, and Dread has pointed out, there are many cost effective ways to lower the medical costs, thereby making it more affordable to everyone that wants to buy into insurance. Those that cannot, well, those are the ones that will have to rely on the charity, and good will of the people, not the government.

Now, I am going to go spend time with my family. Take your high and mighty, (misplaced) sense of righteousness and shove it up your

I'll say this once more, for clarity's sake:

Your right - the government has not effectively run Health Care - there are any number of flaws in Medicaid and Medicare, from billing procedures, to sign-up difficulties, to waste in the system. I have not once suggested that Universal Health Care, run by the Federal Government, be imposed in the United States - but I also refuse to tolerate the deplorable behavior by Private Companies (this is a REALITY - not a hypothetical). Our laws require Health Insurance companies to maximize profit for shareholders. This creates massive conflict of interest - that between drive for profit and the treatment of this country's citizens.To keep the private sector alive, I believe state trade barriers should be dropped (which is in line with GOP policy, by the way), but that health insurance be a non-profit section of each insurance company's business.

Each of your nonsensical "solutions" and Dread's inane "quick-fixes" are fatally flawed. I don't care whether or not you believe differently - those in poverty MUST be cared for; it is our OBLIGATION as successful individuals to ensure that fellow PEOPLE have quality, affordable care. I KNOW that your pseudo-solutions are the most ridiculously designed approaches to healthcare I've ever had the displeasure of reading. You can't just say "It's socialist!!! Ahhhh!!!!!! Repeal it!" Firstly, it's not - secondly, that's not necessarily grounds for repeal - Social Security, among other things also have socialist elements, as do many of our economic regulations. Should we just repeal EVERY law and live in anarchy?

Take a look at these excerpts from a Legal Paper that can be downloaded in full here (http://www.law.georgetown.edu/oneillins ... ndates.cfm)

The Constitution permits Congress to legislate a health insurance mandate. Congress can use its Commerce Clause powers or its taxing and spending powers to create such a mandate. Congress can impose a tax on those that do not purchase insurance, or provide tax benefits to those that do purchase insurance. If Congress would like the states to implement an insurance mandate, it can avoid conflicts with the anti-commandeering principle by either preempting state insurance laws or by conditioning federal funds on state compliance. A federal employer mandate for state and local government workers may be subject to a challenge; however, such a challenge is unlikely to be successful. Individual rights challenges under the First Amendment’s Free Exercise Clause or RFRA are unlikely to succeed, although a federal insurance mandate should include a statement that RFRA does not apply or provide for a religious exemption. Fifth Amendment Due Process and Takings Clause challenges are also unlikely to be successful. The legal analysis presented is likely to endure, as the Supreme Court’s current position and approach to interpreting relevant constitutional issues appear to be stable.

The full paper addresses each and every argument you could viably come up with, so read it.

Anyways:

1) This "what-if" was in response to your suggestion. Under your system, Health Care is completely opt-in, and those that fail to pay for government-run insurance do not receive care when in need. Those born with Kawasaki Disease or other conditions that require treatment into a family that CHOSE not to pay for Health Care do what? Do they not receive treatment because their parents CHOSE not to pay into the "personalized insurance account" you mentioned?

2) What about the fact that Insurance companies DON'T drive prices down. They, actually, have incentive to do exactly the opposite. If someone can't pay out of pocket for 50,000 dollar operations and 1,000 MRIs, Catscans, and X-rays, they are INCLINED to purchase insurance. And guess what: special rates negotiated between companies and hospitals negate the smaller profit margin from increased prices, as do the increased number of clients.

3) Whether or not you resent paying taxes so that these citizens LIVE is your problem entirely. You use public roads, your kids likely went to private school, you have likely (those of who have served in the military) received veteran's benefits, and someday you will receive Social Security. Without understanding the historical context, you fail abysmally in trying to argue against the necessity for a fully insured population

4) I realize this is a "what-if," but it's an important one. It is dependent on what many here would suggest we do, and it speculates as to what would happen you that be done. Simply because something is hypothetical does not render it invalid - if you were to say, "Should the US invade N. Korean airspace, the Chinese might respond negatively," I would accept your statement as a strong possible outcome. Similarly, if you take the government out of health care, insurance companies are likely to drop coverage of what will harm their coffers. This means that important conditions will NEVER be treated unless the individual at hand can afford to pay for 200K plus treatment plans over an extended period of time. People who require tests for this or that, as ordered by a doctor will not receive them because insurance companies will refuse to pay - because they can. Without the regulation that you are so vehemently against, this country's care would plummet to depths inconceivable.

[ProfessorDreadNaught]

Why don't any of you address the arguments I made within my last two posts? Anyone care to comment on my suggestion or like to agree with my observations?

Or will you ignore them because you realize you have nothing to counter them with. Each of the suggestions made by Duel and "Professor" Dread here are laughably impractical, but it seems that the choir will continue to sing hymns of prayer for them regardless.

There is no need to counter your arguments because they are built on faulty premises. As has been stated time and again.

1. It's incontrovertible. The United States health care quality and capacity is second to none. From free flu shots at drugs stores to local urgent care facilities in rural areas to major trauma centers in both urban and suburban areas, from the assisted living homes, hospice and home health care providers to the hundreds of ambulance companies in each state and the highly trained EMTs, police and firefighters in every community, the U.S. has more than its share of highly trained and experienced life savers and care givers. Quality and capacity are NOT the problem. I don't want to see another post saying it is.

2. Health care and health insurance are NOT THE SAME THING. Its ignorance and wrong-headed liberal propaganda that equates having health insurance to having free unlimited health care. What socialist do-gooders have successfully done in this country is frame the debate in terms of "insured" vs "un-insured". They've also included a third category of "under-insured" so when they paint the picture of someone who is "insured" as having completely worry free health-care picked up by your Fortune 500 company with almost no out of pocket charges he won't see through the lie he's being sold. If he doesn't have that Utopia, he's "under-insured" and deserves better.

THIS IS BULL [poo]

Like everything else in life, you get what you pay for. If you pay a lot of money (or your company values you so much they pay some or all of it for you) you get more health care without extra cost. Pay a pittance and that is what you will get. Different insurance plans are available for each end of the spectrum. What insurance will NOT do is knowingly make a policy that will consume much more than it puts in. If it does, it goes bankrupt and can't help anyone.

3. The problem American's need fixed is NOT skyrocketing insurance rates. That's the effect, not the cause. Health care COSTS are the cause. The solution is a mixed bag of increasing government involvement in some areas and eliminating it in others.

Obamacare is an agenda driven solution that ignores the problem. It misses the mark nearly everywhere its needed. Liberal progressives have been working on foisting socialized medicine on the American people since the Great Depression. They see this health care crisis as their chance to win the day by dressing it up as a solution that fits. Its a square peg that falls through the hole that is a messy intricate shape that represents the problem we are faced with. Because they don't have to use a mallet to make it fit they claim it will work.



BTW. by far and away the largest insurance companies in each state WERE/ARE not-for-profit entities exactly as you describe. You've so little understanding of the insurance industry as it exists today, you have absolutely no credibility on the subject.

Pepsi, Obamacare is immoral because it is a program of taking from one person to support another. No "if," "ands" or "buts". That is plain Truth with a capital "T". Now i'm not a hypocrite. I am not opposed to doing the immoral if in balance it helps more than it hurts. (If a terrorist tells me he has hidden a nuclear weapon in NY I'd shoot his innocent wife and torture his young children in front of him to get him to reveal its hiding spot) But be a man and admit it. Start with the Truth and base your arguments on honest premises. Study the situation and look for the real problems, not the propaganda. Then maybe your arguments may be worth the pages of forum discussion they've wasted thus far.

[CommanderOtto]

3. The problem American's need fixed is NOT skyrocketing insurance rates. That's the effect, not the cause. Health care COSTS are the cause. The solution is a mixed bag of increasing government involvement in some areas and eliminating it in others.

This is true.