Evolution & Creationism Debate at Museum

[(SWGO)DesertEagle]

God is infinite, and thus outside time. He cannot have an origin.

I don't and will never believe in a god, but if there was a God I would shake his or her hand and thank them for making me an Atheist.

Um, so if there is a God you would still not believe in a God? You mean if you knew there was a God you would still refuse to believe in Him? I'm confused...

If there is no God, why bother being fair or nice to people? Why sacrifice anything for them? You are just going to "eat and drink, for tommorow you die," so why not be selfish and enjoy yourself more? Why be Atheistic but moralistic? What reason do you have to benefit anyone else?

Where do you get your morals? Is it society? Ok, then where did society get them? Why are people self sacrificing when it does not benefit themselves?

You are implying that the ultimate purpose in life is enjoying yourself and helping others. Where does the latter come from?

I'm intrigued by this view.

Here's a question: Assuming you are correct, and there is no God, why is it not okay for me to steal your money if I know I can get away with it? And no, you cannot appeal to "society," because stealing directly benefits me and why should I care what anyone thinks (better yet, nobody will ever know, I'll just lie and cover it up). Tell me, WHY is this not okay? Who cares about anyone else's enjoyment, I want to enjoy myself and your money will help that along.

Who decided that it was not okay to commit murder? And why do we all seem to agree with that? Why is there an automatic negative reaction to hearing about a murder?

Basically, explain morals without a standard. Explain law without a lawgiver.

You have appealed to a totally natural (aka material) universe. Now explain where the nonmaterial comes from.

The thing is pan...the God you believe in, assuming it is the God of judaism, christianity, and Islam is by the admission of their own holy books is basically a classic dictator when you take the text as a whole. And at the point you are cherry picking from your religion that's the ultimate in being intellectually bankrupt just for the sake of your own comfort.

At this point religion in the west stands as a moderate impediment to gender and sexual equality along with the engraining of anti science and intellectualism. However we only have to look to the middle east to see what religion does without the constraint of secularism.

Once again, we are not anti-science, we are just anti-evolution. Contrary to your belief, there is much science that is not wrapped up in evolution. Since when do we have to submit to your theory of choice in order to be "scientific?" Do you know who makes the biggest breakthroughs? Give you a hint, it's not the people who believe the status quo. It's the avante garde thinkers, the ones who 90% of other scientists laugh at before it ends up in grade school science textbooks. So why would we want to stick to a theory just because "everyone else does it"? I prefer to stick to my own theory and be proved wrong, which you can never do, because it's a historical model, just like evolution.

You keep conflating philosophy and science, and then accuse us of doing the same.

We do not worship the same God that Muslims do, no er what they claim.

Really? What exactly are we avoiding during this "picking and choosing"?

Really, a barrier to gender equality? Christianity teaches that man and woman are both created and that marriage is a relationship of equals submitting to each other. Where is the inequality of that? Sure, the man is the head, but he is "to love his wife and to give up his body for her as Christ gave Himself up for the Church," that is leading by serving.

We promote loving one another and self-sacrifice, please explain how we are a detriment to society.

I'll answer the question for you (permit me to lay aside my philosophical mode of speaking and speak from conviction instead): We teach that you must give up everything you have to receive everything. All have sinned and fallen short. All deserve an eternity in Hell. However, He has provided a way that we can be with Him forever. You must lay down your own will and serve the Lord. You must confess your sins and accept Jesus as Lord. Your life is given to God, and is no longer your own. In return, you receive the One who made everything, you are cleansed of your sins. This is convicting, because deep down everyone has some knowledge of this. You know this, but you do not want to admit it. Your very self fights this, and you have determined to reject Him. However, just hearing about Him or seeing His followers convicts you, so you must find a way to silence them. You try reasoning them away, painting them as fools, passing laws so you don't have to see signs of it. Nothing works, still they are there, nagging your very soul.

Thus, when I speak about creationism, you dare not accept it as valid, it reeks of Christianity. You convienently accept Christian morals, but are careful to attribute them to "societal evolution" to remove all those pesky Christian overtones. Sad as it is that you have closed your mind to God, nothing can be done if you don't do it. You have a free will, and have chosen your ultimate fate.

Now that I have spoken from conviction, I'm going to end my participation here unless you want to talk about specific features of creationism/evolution. Philosophical/religious debates are difficult to end, so I'm going to stick to science.

[(SWGO)SirPepsi]

God is infinite, and thus outside time. He cannot have an origin.

Um, so if there is a God you would still not believe in a God? You mean if you knew there was a God you would still refuse to believe in Him? I'm confused...

If there is no God, why bother being fair or nice to people? Why sacrifice anything for them? You are just going to "eat and drink, for tommorow you die," so why not be selfish and enjoy yourself more? Why be Atheistic but moralistic? What reason do you have to benefit anyone else?

This is likely the most convoluted nonsense I've read on these forums. Morality need not come from some abstract, supernatural entity. Humans are inherently good creatures, and to suggest that we require Religious Instruction to be moral is ludicrous and insulting. Many of the values propagated by faiths around the world are abhorrent, so to suggest that what you believe is divinely-inspired morality is somehow the sole motivation for doing good is despicable. I am moved to help others, to improve my community, to commit time and energy to doing good because I enjoy it, and I would rather live in a world where humans communicate instead of kill, progress instead of regress, band together instead of moving apart. If you're interested in learning why one need not be religious to be moral, why God need not have a role in establishing morality, watch these three videos: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7xt5LtgsxQ&list=SP0EFCB22DFCD4F2E7

Where do you get your morals? Is it society? Ok, then where did society get them? Why are people self sacrificing when it does not benefit themselves?
Because we are sentient creatures, with feelings of guilt, excitement, love, regret. Machiavelli was wrong - I derive no pleasure from conniving and deceiving my way to the top.
You are implying that the ultimate purpose in life is enjoying yourself and helping others. Where does the latter come from?
Do you purposely twist peoples words? Do you simply not understand what we're saying? We don't know where the latter comes from, but it doesn't have to come from God (whose moral code is not considered moral, by today's standards)
I'm intrigued by this view.

Here's a question: Assuming you are correct, and there is no God, why is it not okay for me to steal your money if I know I can get away with it? And no, you cannot appeal to "society," because stealing directly benefits me and why should I care what anyone thinks (better yet, nobody will ever know, I'll just lie and cover it up). Tell me, WHY is this not okay? Who cares about anyone else's enjoyment, I want to enjoy myself and your money will help that along.
Because again, we are conscious beings, with empathy - and no, that empathy does not have to come from God - it can come from a desire to advance, which is most easily done when we work together.
Who decided that it was not okay to commit murder? And why do we all seem to agree with that? Why is there an automatic negative reaction to hearing about a murder?
Carl Jung would say the Collective Unconscious. I posit that it has more to do with Evolution - the human psyche is designed in such a way so as to exemplify certain manners of thinking, these likely emerged because it was essential to our survival at one point: Murder does harm to the tribe, one less hunter to gather food, etc. You'll notice that not until very recently did slavery, eugenics, etc. become absolute immoral acts - does that mean we are more religious now than we were 500 years ago? Certainly not.
Basically, explain morals without a standard. Explain law without a lawgiver.
There are many comprehensive theories as to how something becomes moral/immoral, but I feel that as humans coalesced into groups, tribes, communities, etc., these developed b/c they made survival easier. Humans have always relied on other humans (we're not solitary creatures), and the product of our interactions with one another are reinforced norms, which are passed from person to person through peer pressure and experience. Why does a law-giver have to be involved? Who provided the lawgiver w/ his/her laws? Why doesn't the all-mighty law-giver choose to morph us into moral beings?
You have appealed to a totally natural (aka material) universe. Now explain where the nonmaterial comes from.

Once again, we are not anti-science, we are just anti-evolution. Contrary to your belief, there is much science that is not wrapped up in evolution. Since when do we have to submit to your theory of choice in order to be "scientific?" Do you know who makes the biggest breakthroughs? Give you a hint, it's not the people who believe the status quo. It's the avante garde thinkers, the ones who 90% of other scientists laugh at before it ends up in grade school science textbooks. So why would we want to stick to a theory just because "everyone else does it"? I prefer to stick to my own theory and be proved wrong, which you can never do, because it's a historical model, just like evolution.
We don't demand you "stick" to Evolutionary Theory. If you want to conduct your own experiments, do your own research, question, etc., then by all means, go ahead! Maybe you'll hit upon some breakthrough. But if you're going to continue to sit here and employ fallacy after fallacy and debunked argument after debunked argument to attempt to accomplish your goal, then you'll be called out.
You keep conflating philosophy and science, and then accuse us of doing the same.
No, we accuse you of intermingling baseless claims based on a book that has proven to be flawed with science and attempting to sell it as evidence.
We do not worship the same God that Muslims do, no er what they claim.
What does this have to do with anything? He was pointing out a historical fact - Islam is based on Zoroastrianism and Judaism, and many of the tenants are simiilar.
Really? What exactly are we avoiding during this "picking and choosing"?

Really, a barrier to gender equality? Christianity teaches that man and woman are both created and that marriage is a relationship of equals submitting to each other. Where is the inequality of that? Sure, the man is the head, but he is "to love his wife and to give up his body for her as Christ gave Himself up for the Church," that is leading by serving.
"We're equal, but you answer to me" is not equal. When people use religion to oppress, it becomes a problem.
We promote loving one another and self-sacrifice, please explain how we are a detriment to society.
Christians are not harming society - radicals that gallivant about in support of denying gays equal marital rights, in support of indoctrinating children, in support of backwards thought are those who hurt our society.
I'll answer the question for you (permit me to lay aside my philosophical mode of speaking and speak from conviction instead): We teach that you must give up everything you have to receive everything. All have sinned and fallen short. All deserve an eternity in Hell. However, He has provided a way that we can be with Him forever. You must lay down your own will and serve the Lord. You must confess your sins and accept Jesus as Lord. Your life is given to God, and is no longer your own. In return, you receive the One who made everything, you are cleansed of your sins. This is convicting, because deep down everyone has some knowledge of this. You know this, but you do not want to admit it. Your very self fights this, and you have determined to reject Him. However, just hearing about Him or seeing His followers convicts you, so you must find a way to silence them. You try reasoning them away, painting them as fools, passing laws so you don't have to see signs of it. Nothing works, still they are there, nagging your very soul.
Eternal torture...Hmm - any God that would condemn a nonbeliever to Hell is vindictive and petty. Never-ending pain and torment is not justifiable punishment for any crime, and the notion that faith in Christ as Savior will deliver you from Hellfire is the product of manipulation on the part of the Church and centuries of misguided thought and attempts to subjugate people.
Thus, when I speak about creationism, you dare not accept it as valid, it reeks of Christianity. You convienently accept Christian morals, but are careful to attribute them to "societal evolution" to remove all those pesky Christian overtones. Sad as it is that you have closed your mind to God, nothing can be done if you don't do it. You have a free will, and have chosen your ultimate fate.
"Christian morals?" When will the misunderstandings end? Morality is not tied to faith. Secondly, you purposely portray our concerns with the oh-so-many flaws in creationism as part of some deficiency on our part. I don't oppose creationism b/c it is a largely Christian idea; I oppose it because there is no evidence to support it.
Now that I have spoken from conviction, I'm going to end my participation here unless you want to talk about specific features of creationism/evolution. Philosophical/religious debates are difficult to end, so I'm going to stick to science.That's laughable - you haven't come close to approaching rational, scientific discussion in this thread.

Responses in blue. I'd also ask you to take time to watch this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pt9x3CnxApo&list=SPEE35CE6166F7B834

[Col. Hstar]

Or what do we have to gain? in this case nothing.

It would add meaning to our lives. To refuse belief in God would imply that we live for roughly 70-80 years and that it. Nothing we do would make a difference. In that short period of time we exist and then nothing. We may do wonderful things in that time but over time it's nothing more different then the existence of a house fly. Is that really appealing to you? If it is then more power to you.

Usually disbelief in God comes from a spirit of independence. People don't want to be told how to live their lives. Believing in God means submitting to a higher authority. That scares people who want to live their life the way they want. We as humans are given free will because God doesn't want mindless drones. He wants us to know him and live by his standards because he cares for us, which is why he invites us to get to know him.

This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.” (John 17:3)

As far as the questionnaire from Yanoda.


Kinetics of Matter (movement of gases & solids)
Yes
Nature of Matter (composition of mater)
Yes
Radioactive Decay (where an unstable atom loses energy by emitting particles)
Yes
General Relativity (gravity as a geometric property of space and time)
Yes
The Big Bang (cosmological model for the early Universe)
I believe the process of how the universe was forming is correct, however I don't believe it happen by itself or was a spontaneous event. I believe the universe to be designed
Plate Tectonics (describes the large-scale motions of Earth's crust)
Yes
Genetics (Genes, heredity/inheritance and variation in organisms)
Yes
Thermodynamics (Entropy, Enthalpy & free energy)
Yes
Half-Life (decay of radioactive atoms)
Haven't studied it
Cells (structure, functions & properties)
Yes
Radiometric Dating (technique to date rocks using radioactive isotopes)
No
Germs & Diseases (diseases are caused by micro-organisms)
Yes
Creationism
Yes
I attribute the amazing way we are made, life on earth, all the science that is used to explain how our bodies work, how all life works(Plants, Insect, Animals)
All this is proof to me that we had to have a creator and did NOT happen by pure chance
Evolution
No
Facts pointing towards evolution are incomplete. They do not prove the origins of life without a creator. Keep in mind many years ago intellectuals insisted that the world was flat and the universe circled our planet. Those were proven wrong because mankind couldn't understand them. How can you know that scientists aren't making the same short sighted conclusions now. Just because science can't prove it yet doesn't make it false.


Adam & Eve existed (First Humans, their creation and subsequent expulsion from Eden)
Yes Genisis 1:26 - 3:24
Humans and Dinosaurs lived at the same time.
No
Genesis 1:21
Noah's Flood Global (Water covered the entire Earth where every land based creature not in the Ark has died)
Yes
Genesis 7:17-20
Noah's Flood Regional (Flood only occurred within the region and not globally, water only covered the area)
No
Dinosaurs and humans both lived at the same time in the past.
Same as above
All modern Humans are descendants of Noah and his family
Yes
God created the first human parents as perfect human beings. While inherited sin diminished that perfection it still allowed humans to live longer back then and didn't suffer the genetic issues we do today almost 4000 years later
Earth is about 10,000 - 6,000 years old.
No
Earth is about 4.5 billion years old.
Yes
Organisms (animals & humans) do not undergo changes in anyway.
Animals and humans suffer mutations, or deformities. These are not changes to the human or animal species.
Is God omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent etc.?
Yes he is.

Now answer my one and only question. Does evolution or science have any explination for how life began. What was the spark that started the supposed organisms that began evolving into life as we know it today.

[(SWGO)SirPepsi]

Now answer my one and only question. Does evolution or science have any explination for how life began. What was the spark that started the supposed organisms that began evolving into life as we know it today.

You're mixing two entirely different issues. Evolution doesn't purport to explain the origin of life, rather it details the process by which organisms undergo changes over time. Evolution is an observed reality, whereas theories continue to abound regarding the origin of life, of our universe, etc. Evolution happens - it's as simple as that. Favorable mutations contribute to an organisms survival, and thus, its ability to reproduce and pass on its genetic information.

[[NH]Shadow]

The thing is pan...the God you believe in, assuming it is the God of judaism, christianity, and Islam is by the admission of their own holy books is basically a classic dictator when you take the text as a whole. And at the point you are cherry picking from your religion that's the ultimate in being intellectually bankrupt just for the sake of your own comfort.

At this point religion in the west stands as a moderate impediment to gender and sexual equality along with the engraining of anti science and intellectualism. However we only have to look to the middle east to see what religion does without the constraint of secularism.

The God of Judiasm/Christianity is not the God of Islam...

[Col. Hstar]

Now answer my one and only question. Does evolution or science have any explination for how life began. What was the spark that started the supposed organisms that began evolving into life as we know it today.

You're mixing two entirely different issues. Evolution doesn't purport to explain the origin of life, rather it details the process by which organisms undergo changes over time. Evolution is an observed reality, whereas theories continue to abound regarding the origin of life, of our universe, etc. Evolution happens - it's as simple as that. Favorable mutations contribute to an organisms survival, and thus, its ability to reproduce and pass on its genetic information.

So the answer is no. There is no scientific fact explaining the origin of life..... ( I said evolution OR science)

I don't know but I would rather have a complete answer with regards to how we came to be as humans. To say some lifeless organisms just happened to spontaneously decide to mutate for survival is an extraordinary claim. Which is what you must believe if you don't believe in God. You just feel science hasn't proved it yet.

Saying that evolution just happens isn't enough. It is not an observed reality. Evolution is supposed to have occurred over millions of years. The theory hasn't even been around that long. Some mutations and deformities "for survival" are not evidence of a change in species.

Like I said before, humans used to think the universe revolved around the earth, they also used to think the earth was flat. They were wrong then, what made humans infallible today?

[(SWGO)SirPepsi]

So the answer is no. There is no scientific fact explaining the origin of life..... ( I said evolution OR science)
Evolution and abiogenesis are not the same thing. Though scientists can't (yet) explain how life originated, this doesn't impact the validity of evolution.
I don't know but I would rather have a complete answer with regards to how we came to be as humans. Faith in God doesn't provide you with that answer.To say some lifeless organisms just happened to spontaneously decide to mutate for survival is an extraordinary claim. If you accept that your genes are inherited from your parents, then you accept that any genetic abnormalities can be inherited as well. If a genetic abnormality contributes to an organisms' ability to survive and the organism is able to reproduce, its genes will be passed down to its descendants, who will inherit it. If the gene continues to be favorable, more and more of the population, over several generations will exhibit it, as they descend from organisms with that trait. If catastrophe separates members of one species into several different locations, then the trait that was once favorable may not continue to be favorable and organisms displaying it in their new environment may not live to pass on their genes. The ones that do are genetically more well-suited to their environment and so pass on their genes (keep in mind, these heritable characteristics may include instincts) and, over the course of millions of years, the species will develop noticeably different features from its form ages ago. Which is what you must believe if you don't believe in God. You just feel science hasn't proved it yet.

Saying that evolution just happens isn't enough. No, it's not - that would make me similar to you and Desert Eagle; there is evidence for evolution: http://howgoodisthat.wordpress.com/2010/07/19/10-facts-of-darwinian-evolution-young-earth-creationists-dont-want-to-understand/ It is not an observed reality. Evolution is supposed to have occurred over millions of years. The theory hasn't even been around that long. And? Gravity has existed forever, yet the Law of Gravity has only been accepted as reality for 400 years. Some mutations and deformities "for survival" are not evidence of a change in species. Actually, it is

Like I said before, humans used to think the universe revolved around the earth, they also used to think the earth was flat. They were wrong then, what made humans infallible today? What does this have to do with anything? You neglect to mention that we now know that the solar system is heliocentric, that we now know that the Earth is spherical. Those are advances and discoveries we've made that have contradicted prior thought. That's the beauty of science - if some discovery is made that revolutionizes current thinking, it is incorporated into thought, old theories are refined or scrapped, and life goes on. Building knowledge is a continual process.

[Mandalore]

Anywho who claims morality in Jehovah is either willfully ignorant or utterly evil.

Although if we revert to God's law then maybe you guys can rape up a few wives! I'd suggest waiting for the price of silver to drop since we have to pay 50 pieces of it! But hey God, being the lout he is failed to make any defined rules about the pieces of silver, so they can be debased.
(Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT)

"If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her."

What kind of lunatic would make a rape victim marry her attacker? Answer: God.

Buy hey! There's a bright side if you're not into rape too! A father can always sell his own daughter into sexual slavery!

"When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment." (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

And plus, as a buyer you get a return policy! No time limit on it either apparently, thanks God! But also, don't be selling your daughters to those dirty foreigners! But look on the bright side women, if he gets tired of [m'kay] ing you, then he can always have you marry his son regardless of your wishes. Two rapists, for the price of one! Miraculous! Plus if he takes other wives, he can't make your station any less, how merciful he is to make sure your rapist still has to treat you like the piece of [poo] chattel you are in the eyes of God!

But fathers, I know you're concerned about the safety of your daughters who you just sold into slavery! Don't worry bros, God has your back!

"When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property." (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)

So at the very least, he has to make sure it's a slow death so he wont' be punished! Praise Jesus!

But hey, I know you're thinking to yourself what if you rape someone and don't have dat silva to hand over? Or God forbid, she's already married! Don't worry you scum, you can't go about raping other people's property!

(Deuteronomy 22:23-24 NAB)

"If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife."

And that dumb [promiscuous woman] you raped? Well she gets stoned too. Because she's a [promiscuous woman]! Who apparently didn't scream loud enough. Maybe she thought you were buying her? Rape can get so confusing I bet.

And slaves, don't think you're wriggling out of this!
Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)

Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)


In the following parable, Jesus clearly approves of beating slaves even if they didn't know they were doing anything wrong.

The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it. "But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly. Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given." (Luke 12:47-48 NLT)

And that Jesus guy? He's pretty cool with all this

"For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished," (NASB, Matt. 5:18).

"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill," (Matt. 5:17). Please also note that the Hebrew in this passage for "the Law" is "Torah" or as the Christians say, the Old Testament.

In short, Christianity is doctrinally evil.

[Bryant]

Since you seem so interested in slavery (also known as bond-servants, which by the way is different then what we think of modern day slavery):

Mark 10: "44 And whoever of you desires to be first shall be slave of all. 45 For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.”

[Mandalore]

The Greek word is Doulos, which means slave. Contemporary Christians have tried to re-nuance the word, but the word at its core means you are someone's property.