Evolution & Creationism Debate at Museum

[CommanderOtto]

"If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her."

Mandy, translation of the scriptures is a very difficult task and no Bible can fully capture the real meaning of the original text. There are, however, some versions which are better than others. For that reason, I stick to versions like the Reina Valera in Spanish or the King James Version. Very few translations use the word "rape" and I find that very odd. Most of the respected ones use the term "take" which is more appropriate to the context.

Deuteronomy 22:28-29
King James Version (KJV)
28 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;

29 Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.

Deuteronomy 22:28-29
Common English Bible (CEB)
28 If a man meets up with a young woman who is a virgin and not engaged, grabs her and has sex with her, and they are caught in the act, 29 the man who had sex with her must give fifty silver shekels to the young woman’s father. She will also become his wife because he has humiliated her. He is never allowed to divorce her.

Deuteronomy 22:28-29
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
28 “If a man finds a girl who is a virgin, who is not engaged, and seizes her and lies with her and they are discovered, 29 then the man who lay with her shall give to the girl’s father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall become his wife because he has violated her; he cannot divorce her all his days.

Deuteronomy 22:28-29
American Standard Version (ASV)
28 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, that is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;

29 then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife, because he hath humbled her; he may not put her away all his days.

Deuteronomio 22:28-29
Reina-Valera Antigua (RVA)
28 Cuando alguno hallare moza virgen, que no fuere desposada, y la tomare, y se echare con ella, y fueren hallados;
29 Entonces el hombre que se echó con ella dará al padre de la moza cincuenta piezas de plata, y ella será su mujer, por cuanto la humilló: no la podrá despedir en todos sus días.

To clarify things, back in ancient israel, when women were given in marriage, the men had to pay the parents a sum of money. It was important because just like today, it takes a lot of money to raise children. So, the payment from the new husband was a financial contribution for raising her. If a woman was to be found having sex with someone out of marriage, nobody would want to marry her. So, if they were both discovered, then the man had to pay the parents and marry the girl, because he made her loose her virginity. And that is not surprising, because even recently in the 50's and 60's young ladies that had pre-marital sex had were deemed unworthy and were very difficult to marry because nobody wanted to marry a girl that had lost her virginity. Therefore, the text is not about rape. The man is "taking" the woman to have sex, but the text also says "and they are discovered" which implies that the woman also consented to sex and was discovered. Besides, just like you said, if the real text was "rape" it wouldn't even make sense. What parents would want her daughter to marry a rapist?

So... to summarize:

1. the text is not capturing the real meaning of the original hebrew text.
2. the law was made to protect parents from having an unmarried daughter, which was very embarrassing in those times.
3. this law also protected the financial state of the parents.
4. this law protected young women who made the mistake of loosing the virginity before marriage. It forced the guy who had sex with her to marry her. While nowadays, many men have sex with young women, leave them pregnant and never come back.
5. This law served the purpose of stopping young men of having pre marital sex. They had to think twice if they were going to do what they were going to do, because he would have to stick to that woman forever, without the possibility of divorce or of choosing another woman that he preferred.

I hope that answers your question. By the way, if we don't want to throw the thread out of its original purpose, I could respond your other questions through a PM.

[-)G(-Sawyer]

what do you have to lose to belief in a "higher power"?.

Or what do we have to gain? in this case nothing. .

What do we have to gain? Everlasting life, seeing old family, no more pain or tears. Once again...sign me up.
Remember... you said nothing happens, that's a sad thing to believe in.

I've never seen it as sad or never felt the need for a comfort blanket.

As for Homester I feel it best for me not to comment on what you have posted today as I think most of what you have said is the ramblings of a madman.

Anyways even though America is like one of the worlds hot spots for mad religious types we also have them over here.

Posted on his Facebook today

Ricky Gervais
Ha! Take that America! You haven't got all the crazy, irrational, angry, homophobic, fundamentalist lunatics
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/ukip-councillor-says-winter-storms-are-down-to-david-camerons-support-for-gay-marriage-9069226.html

[Col. Hstar]

So the answer is no. There is no scientific fact explaining the origin of life..... ( I said evolution OR science)
Evolution and abiogenesis are not the same thing. Though scientists can't (yet) explain how life originated, this doesn't impact the validity of evolution.
I don't know but I would rather have a complete answer with regards to how we came to be as humans. Faith in God doesn't provide you with that answer.To say some lifeless organisms just happened to spontaneously decide to mutate for survival is an extraordinary claim. If you accept that your genes are inherited from your parents, then you accept that any genetic abnormalities can be inherited as well. If a genetic abnormality contributes to an organisms' ability to survive and the organism is able to reproduce, its genes will be passed down to its descendants, who will inherit it. If the gene continues to be favorable, more and more of the population, over several generations will exhibit it, as they descend from organisms with that trait. If catastrophe separates members of one species into several different locations, then the trait that was once favorable may not continue to be favorable and organisms displaying it in their new environment may not live to pass on their genes. The ones that do are genetically more well-suited to their environment and so pass on their genes (keep in mind, these heritable characteristics may include instincts) and, over the course of millions of years, the species will develop noticeably different features from its form ages ago. Which is what you must believe if you don't believe in God. You just feel science hasn't proved it yet.

Saying that evolution just happens isn't enough. No, it's not - that would make me similar to you and Desert Eagle; there is evidence for evolution: http://howgoodisthat.wordpress.com/2010/07/19/10-facts-of-darwinian-evolution-young-earth-creationists-dont-want-to-understand/ It is not an observed reality. Evolution is supposed to have occurred over millions of years. The theory hasn't even been around that long. And? Gravity has existed forever, yet the Law of Gravity has only been accepted as reality for 400 years. Some mutations and deformities "for survival" are not evidence of a change in species. Actually, it is

Like I said before, humans used to think the universe revolved around the earth, they also used to think the earth was flat. They were wrong then, what made humans infallible today? What does this have to do with anything? You neglect to mention that we now know that the solar system is heliocentric, that we now know that the Earth is spherical. Those are advances and discoveries we've made that have contradicted prior thought. That's the beauty of science - if some discovery is made that revolutionizes current thinking, it is incorporated into thought, old theories are refined or scrapped, and life goes on. Building knowledge is a continual process.

I had intended on responding line by line to your comments but it's more pointless now. You're failing to get what I'm saying. Instead your just repeating yourself. My point is that regardless of what we believe it will always come down to a er of faith. You actually made a comment that you are not like me and Desert, but you are. You've put faith in evolution as a fact, because in your opinion it has been proven beyond a doubt, yet you're ok with the fact that nothing else can explain where the spark of life came from. You said it yourself
"Though scientists can't (yet) explain how life originated, this doesn't impact the validity of evolution."
This is my point If you refuse to believe in God you MUST have an explanation or theory of how life started. That is where your faith comes into play. And that is what makes you similar to me and every other person who makes a decision about such ers. No one is better then the other because they support an intellectual idea.

We all base our opinions about God on our own studies and conclusions. Believe me there are MANY things in just the few posts from Desert that I can see we disagree on. Those are our opinions formed by our study of the bible. Your rejection of the bible as Gods word is also an opinion. One you have every right to make. I sincerely hope this opinion was formed from your own open minded study and not on what someone told you or some video you watched on YouTube. I personally love science. I'm not advanced in it but I enjoy it. I've studied evolution in school but for me it didn't satisfy my questions. That's my opinion.

Eventually everyone has to make a decision. The bible foretells a time in the near future when the nations of the world will turn on all religion. If you believe God doesn't exist that's your decision. God promises to save those who truly believe in him and live life according to his standards. He does not promise eternal torture to those who don't.


@Sawyer
That's perfectly fine for you not to comment. I do find it humorous that you send insults instead of just no comment. But I guess when stumped that's all you really can do (Matt 11:25)

[CommanderOtto]

I guess that nowadays the words Jehovah, Faith and Jesus have received a bad image thanks to all the crazy people who claim to believe in them. That doesn't mean other Christians are madmen. Homestar has good explanations.

[Col. Hstar]

I guess that nowadays the words Jehovah, Faith and Jesus have received a bad image thanks to all the crazy people who claim to believe in them. That doesn't mean other Christians are madmen. Homestar has good explanations.

Faith is a dirty word for atheists. That's why it is SO important that their beliefs are perceived to be based only on hard facts backed by science. In the end though since no one was around to witness the beginning of life everyone has to have some measure of faith.
Whether you believe God had a hand in it
Or
Whether you believe science hasn't explained it yet

[(SWGO)SirPepsi]

I had intended on responding line by line to your comments but it's more pointless now. You're failing to get what I'm saying. Instead your just repeating yourself. Yes, I do - that's regrettable I know, but you don't seem to read my posts or grasp my points. You're willfully ignoring the overwhelming amount of evidence that has been presented to you. My point is that regardless of what we believe it will always come down to a er of faith. No, it doesn't. If there's scientific evidence to support something, we don't have to rely on faith to accept it as fact. You actually made a comment that you are not like me and Desert, but you are. You've put faith in evolution as a fact, because in your opinion it has been proven beyond a doubt, It has. Evolution happens, and there's ample evidence to support it - I've listed some of that, and more can be found in the 100 page-long thread we both participated in last year. I don't need to keep supplying evidenceyet you're ok with the fact that nothing else can explain where the spark of life came from. You can't keep mixing abiogenesis and evolution. They're two different issues.You said it yourself
"Though scientists can't (yet) explain how life originated, this doesn't impact the validity of evolution."It doesn't. I don't know how life originated, but I know that species change significantly over time.
This is my point If you refuse to believe in God I don't refuse to believe in God - you're mischaracterizing me. you MUST have an explanation or theory of how life started. Why? What's wrong with "I don't know?" It's a beautiful answer, one that's both honest and reflects an open-minded approach to learning. That is where your faith comes into play. And that is what makes you similar to me and every other person who makes a decision about such ers. No one is better then the other because they support an intellectual idea. I never claimed to be better than you.

We all base our opinions about God on our own studies and conclusions. Believe me there are MANY things in just the few posts from Desert that I can see we disagree on. Those are our opinions formed by our study of the bible. Homestar, what you're saying is clearly established. I've never grouped all Christians into a single category.Your rejection of the bible as Gods word is also an opinion. Yes, but it is one founded in ample study, study that has included extensive reading of both the text itself and related material.One you have every right to make. I sincerely hope this opinion was formed from your own open minded study and not on what someone told you or some video you watched on YouTube. I personally love science. I'm not advanced in it but I enjoy it. I've studied evolution in school but for me it didn't satisfy my questions. That's my opinion.

Eventually everyone has to make a decision. The bible foretells a time in the near future when the nations of the world will turn on all religion. If you believe God doesn't exist I don't believe God doesn't exist. that's your decision. God promises to save those who truly believe in him and live life according to his standards. He does not promise eternal torture to those who don't...

That's why it is SO important that their beliefs are perceived to be based only on hard facts backed by science. In the end though since no one was around to witness the beginning of life everyone has to have some measure of faith. So because no one was alive to see the dinosaurs, it requires faith to say that they existed? Just as we have fossils to help us conclude that they did, we have evidence to support evolution.

Responses in blue.

[11_Panama_]

Anywho who claims morality in Jehovah is either willfully ignorant or utterly evil.

Although if we revert to God's law then maybe you guys can rape up a few wives! I'd suggest waiting for the price of silver to drop since we have to pay 50 pieces of it! But hey God, being the lout he is failed to make any defined rules about the pieces of silver, so they can be debased.
(Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT)

"If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her."

What kind of lunatic would make a rape victim marry her attacker? Answer: God.

Buy hey! There's a bright side if you're not into rape too! A father can always sell his own daughter into sexual slavery!

"When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment." (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

And plus, as a buyer you get a return policy! No time limit on it either apparently, thanks God! But also, don't be selling your daughters to those dirty foreigners! But look on the bright side women, if he gets tired of [m'kay] ing you, then he can always have you marry his son regardless of your wishes. Two rapists, for the price of one! Miraculous! Plus if he takes other wives, he can't make your station any less, how merciful he is to make sure your rapist still has to treat you like the piece of [poo] chattel you are in the eyes of God!

But fathers, I know you're concerned about the safety of your daughters who you just sold into slavery! Don't worry bros, God has your back!

"When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property." (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)

So at the very least, he has to make sure it's a slow death so he wont' be punished! Praise Jesus!

But hey, I know you're thinking to yourself what if you rape someone and don't have dat silva to hand over? Or God forbid, she's already married! Don't worry you scum, you can't go about raping other people's property!

(Deuteronomy 22:23-24 NAB)

"If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife."

And that dumb [promiscuous woman] you raped? Well she gets stoned too. Because she's a [promiscuous woman]! Who apparently didn't scream loud enough. Maybe she thought you were buying her? Rape can get so confusing I bet.

And slaves, don't think you're wriggling out of this!
Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)

Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)


In the following parable, Jesus clearly approves of beating slaves even if they didn't know they were doing anything wrong.

The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it. "But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly. Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given." (Luke 12:47-48 NLT)

And that Jesus guy? He's pretty cool with all this

"For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished," (NASB, Matt. 5:18).

"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill," (Matt. 5:17). Please also note that the Hebrew in this passage for "the Law" is "Torah" or as the Christians say, the Old Testament.

In short, Christianity is doctrinally evil.

That's the Old Testament. That all changed when God gave his only son. That's when the New Testaments began.

[CommanderOtto]

yeah, but Pan, he has a good question. Even though it is the old testament and does not apply anymore, that doesn't mean God put barbaric laws as he has said. The first rape comment is based on a text that is badly translated because several other versions do not have it written in the same way, and we both know that the Bible is the same everywhere. I will give him an explanation for the rest once he reads the first part I posted. Otherwise I would think it is too much information to digest.

[Col. Hstar]

Responses

I don't ignore the "overwhelming evidence" you provide. I've come to a different conclusion about them.

Evolution and abiogenisis are both intertwined. You and I disagree on this. We can now move on.

Why is "I don't know" a "beautiful answer" and "I Believe" a horrible one?

Dinosaurs and the beginning of life are slightly different subjects. (You should know this) Evolution is a process, dinosaurs are subjects.
A fossil can show that a subject existed. But does not show a progression of an entire species. A group of fossils leaves too much to speculation with regards accuracy and thoroughness.


+1 On Otto's explanation of the Hebrew Scriptures. Personal study of the scriptures and scrutinizing the translation you use is important. Also no er how harsh the laws were in ancient times, those were laws the Israelites agreed to live by. We are not bound by them. But they are an excellent source of insight for getting to know God

[haasd0gg]

Even though it is the old testament and does not apply anymore

So... The first half is bs and should be ignored, but the second half should be adhered to?...
Exactly why I stay away from this stuff. I've never found truth rooted in lies.