Does Scipture exclude the rich from Heaven?

[Mandalore]

So did I win?

Oh yeah, definitely. It's pretty much everyone v Mandy, so...I guess I won too

Sniffle! If we were ingame this would mean that I won!

And Homestar, work was slow. ;)

In truth I was more looking for an unorthodox Christian in regards to their belief that Jesus was anti-capitalist which is certainly something you could claim if you interpreted in a different light. For example if you took the verse I posted as Jesus not offering him direct discipleship but an in general layout to getting to Heaven. While I find that modern "non-denominational" Christianity ironically seems to derive a lot from the Cathars in France (not sure what this is in English) there certainly are some almost socialistic ideas in the New Testament. I'd have to look up what scripture the Catholic Church used to support their ban on interest on lending but I'm sure there's at least some.

[11_Panama_]

I know that in the early Bible, Jews could not charge interest to another Jew, but a non Jew could.. and vice versa.

[CommanderOtto]

So did I win?

Oh yeah, definitely. It's pretty much everyone v Mandy, so...I guess I won too

Sniffle! If we were ingame this would mean that I won!

And Homestar, work was slow. ;)

In truth I was more looking for an unorthodox Christian in regards to their belief that Jesus was anti-capitalist which is certainly something you could claim if you interpreted in a different light. For example if you took the verse I posted as Jesus not offering him direct discipleship but an in general layout to getting to Heaven. While I find that modern "non-denominational" Christianity ironically seems to derive a lot from the Cathars in France (not sure what this is in English) there certainly are some almost socialistic ideas in the New Testament. I'd have to look up what scripture the Catholic Church used to support their ban on interest on lending but I'm sure there's at least some.

If I may say, Jesus is not capitalist or socialist. Those are lines of human political thought which are imperfect. This is what I found regarding politics in the Bible:

Ecclesiastes 8:9
9 All of this I have seen, and I applied my heart to every work that has been done under the sun, during the time that man has dominated man to his harm.*+

Daniel 2:44
44 “In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom+ that will never be destroyed.+ And this kingdom will not be passed on to any other people.+ It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms,+ and it alone will stand forever,+

(no more human governments... and we both know that both capitalism and socialism have their problems).

Isaiah 2:4
New King James Version (NKJV)
4 He shall judge between the nations,
And rebuke many people;
They shall beat their swords into plowshares,
And their spears into pruning hooks;
Nation shall not lift up sword against nation,
Neither shall they learn war anymore.

(God does not support any human nation)

1 John 5:19
19 We know that we originate with God, but the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.+

(and this verse makes complete sense when you read the next one below. If God doesn't control human governments, then who does?)

Matthew 4
New King James Version (NKJV)
8 Again, the devil took Him up on an exceedingly high mountain, and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. 9 And he said to Him, “All these things I will give You if You will fall down and worship me.”

10 Then Jesus said to him, “Away with you,[d] Satan! For it is written, ‘You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only you shall serve.’”[e]

It clearly says here that the Devil offered Jesus all the kingdoms on earth. If any of these kingdoms and their politics belonged to Jesus then it wouldn't have been a temptation. That means the Devil controls them.

That's why I don't think Jesus would support any type of human government or form of politics.

[Mandalore]

So does that mean that you think that the coming of Jesus rescinded Israel's place in the sun in the eyes of Jehovah?

[Col. Hstar]

When the Jews of that time rejected God's son they lost God's favor as a nation. Jesus' sacrifice made it possible for all to gain God's favor on an individual basis This included Jewish and non-Jewish alike, and regardless of whether their hope is a heavenly calling or the hope of living forever on a peaceful earth.

Since he laid down his perfect life as a ransom for the one Adam lost we can gain Jehovah's favor by acknowledging his and his son's sacrifice and putting faith in all Jesus taught while he was on earth.

If someone today laid down their life for you. Wouldn't you feel obligated to make sure that sacrifice had meaning?

There are many ways people can interpret writings depending on translations and dialects from both modern and ancient times. This is not the fault of the bible, it is human imperfection and short comings. But every human still has the chance despite this. All we must do is make an effort James 4:8 says "Draw close to God, and he will draw close to you" we do this by reading and studying his word with an open and humble mind, knowing that his wisdom is infinitely greater then our own.

[CommanderOtto]

So does that mean that you think that the coming of Jesus rescinded Israel's place in the sun in the eyes of Jehovah?

As Homestar explained, the reason Christians are not Jews is because the literal Israel ceased to be Jehovah's nation, because they broke the pact. Remember, the literal Israel started as God's nation because that was the promise He made to Abraham for his friendship. His descendants promised to serve Jehovah but failed to keep their promise with degrading moral behavior. The initial pact with Israel is here:

Exodus 19: 3-8
3 Then Moses went up to the true God, and Jehovah called to him from the mountain,+ saying: “This is what you are to say to the house of Jacob and to tell the Israelites, 4 ‘You have seen for yourselves what I did to the Egyptians,+ in order to carry you on wings of eagles and bring you to myself.+ 5 Now if you will strictly obey my voice and keep my covenant, you will certainly become my special property* out of all peoples,+ for the whole earth belongs to me.+ 6 You will become to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’+ These are the words that you are to say to the Israelites.”
7 So Moses went and summoned the elders of the people and declared to them all these words that Jehovah had commanded him.+ 8 After that all the people answered unanimously: “All that Jehovah has spoken, we are willing to do.”+ Moses immediately took the people’s response to Jehovah.

But since Israel broke their side of the pact, then God wanted a new pact:

Jeremiah 31:31-33
New King James Version (NKJV)
A New Covenant

31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them,[a] says the Lord. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

When Jesus came, then he was the person who would introduce this new pact:

Luke 22:20
20 Also, he did the same with the cup after they had the evening meal, saying: “This cup means the new covenant+ by virtue of my blood,+ which is to be poured out in your behalf.+

Finally, the Bible demonstrates that the new pact is not in the literal Israel (the reason for why Israel was destroyed in the year 70 by the Romans). Instead, The new pact allows people from all countries to get closer to God as we can see in Acts 10:34-48 (It is a bit long to post here). But it is nice to point this part in verse 34:

34 At this Peter began to speak, and he said: “Now I truly understand that God is not partial,+ 35 but in every nation the man who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him.+

Thus, God does not support any country, but he allows people from anywhere to get closer to him. This is why the current and literal Israel (a modern nation that has nothing to do with the old one) is not God's nation anymore.

[Mandalore]

If someone today laid down their life for you. Wouldn't you feel obligated to make sure that sacrifice had meaning?

If someone clearly made that effort for me, then obviously it would have an emotional effect for me. I would certainly not base my life decisions around their sacrifice though. That seems rather silly. I already lead life with the goal in mind to make it the best I can. An odd thought is how many Christians believe what they believe in part to receive their just desserts in Heaven. Yet, as one song puts it "Everyone wants to go to Heaven, but no one wants to die."

And Otto, I'd honestly have to go back through both Testaments to get at all that pulling. It's been a few years since I've read it from cover to cover and I usually only read the parts that are done in Church these days to occupy myself. The only thing that sticks out in my mind is that Jesus claims that he is the way for the new pact and yet there doesn't really seem to have been a mass conversion of Jews at that time. Which leads me to ask why should we think his claim is true when the Jews of his time didn't really see the truth of these claims? Although obviously this is hard to to quantify given lack of primary and objective evidence from that time period. But the fact that Christianity started off as basically a Jewish offshoot and then the resultant schism between Jews and Christians in the first century and a half of Christianity gives some level of evidence that Jews were not a particularly strong portion of the Christian population even when both Jews and Christians in this time period were centered around coastal cities in particular the levant, Asia Minor, and Alexandria in Egypt.

[CommanderOtto]

If someone today laid down their life for you. Wouldn't you feel obligated to make sure that sacrifice had meaning?

If someone clearly made that effort for me, then obviously it would have an emotional effect for me. I would certainly not base my life decisions around their sacrifice though. That seems rather silly. I already lead life with the goal in mind to make it the best I can. An odd thought is how many Christians believe what they believe in part to receive their just desserts in Heaven. Yet, as one song puts it "Everyone wants to go to Heaven, but no one wants to die."

And Otto, I'd honestly have to go back through both Testaments to get at all that pulling. It's been a few years since I've read it from cover to cover and I usually only read the parts that are done in Church these days to occupy myself. The only thing that sticks out in my mind is that Jesus claims that he is the way for the new pact and yet there doesn't really seem to have been a mass conversion of Jews at that time. Which leads me to ask why should we think his claim is true when the Jews of his time didn't really see the truth of these claims? Although obviously this is hard to to quantify given lack of primary and objective evidence from that time period. But the fact that Christianity started off as basically a Jewish offshoot and then the resultant schism between Jews and Christians in the first century and a half of Christianity gives some level of evidence that Jews were not a particularly strong portion of the Christian population even when both Jews and Christians in this time period were centered around coastal cities in particular the levant, Asia Minor, and Alexandria in Egypt.

no problem Mandy, hopefully those texts I mentioned will give you something to start with. As for why many Jews didn't convert, I guess because many were too involved in politics or in the new religions that had become popular in Israel. Even Flavius Josephus mentioned that many new factions of Judaism had started at around that time (example: Pharisees and Saducees) which believed in many things that were not in the original scriptures of the old testament. Also, Israel had become so degenerate and politicized that many people simply ignored Jesus, even though they knew a Messiah was coming. Just like today, many politicians and religious leaders blatantly lie to fool millions of people, the same thing happened back then. In fact, I read Flaviu's Josephus The Jewish War, and it gives you a good picture of how society was like during the last days of Israel. But all of this led to the complete destruction of Jerusalem a few decades after Jesus. They were obliterated by the Romans, once again showing that God didn't support the literal Israel anymore. The thing is, the old testament had sufficient evidence that a Messiah was coming, but they didn't pay any attention.

[Col. Hstar]

If someone today laid down their life for you. Wouldn't you feel obligated to make sure that sacrifice had meaning?

If someone clearly made that effort for me, then obviously it would have an emotional effect for me. I would certainly not base my life decisions around their sacrifice though. That seems rather silly.

It may seem silly to you but that is your opinion, and your decision. Personally someone giving their life for me would have more then an "emotion effect". Also to be honest I doubt you would really be as indifferent to that situation as you claim. But that just my opinion too.

An odd thought is how many Christians believe what they believe in part to receive their just desserts in Heaven. Yet, as one song puts it "Everyone wants to go to Heaven, but no one wants to die."

Surprisingly I agree with the fact that many people do believe that, however I do not believe that everyone goes to heaven. The bible does not say that everyone has a heavenly calling. Most have the hope of living forever on earth in peace and security. People who do die can and will be resurrected to this new world.

John 5:28
28 Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice.

2 Peter 3:1313 "But there are new heavens and a new earth that we are awaiting according to his promise, and in these righteousness is to dwell."

John 3:16
16 “For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, so that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life."

Psalm 37:10, 11
10 Just a little while longer, and the wicked will be no more; You will look at where they were, and they will not be there.
11 But the meek will possess the earth, and they will find exquisite delight in the abundance of peace.

[(SWGO)Max]

Back to the subject, I belive the rich aren't excluded from heaven, it's just less likely that they will get into heaven. Also there is the er of predestination.

Bob, you need to do more studying.

--------------

The bible does not exclude the rich, as the others have stated. Material things do not get you into heaven. God is not partial. Those who enter into heaven are those who lived there lives on the "Narrow path" (Matthew 7:14: Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.")... Those who live their lives in accordance with Gods "laws", "standards" or "morals" will enter into heaven. Romans 14:12: "So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God." Romans 2:6-9, "God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger."