Evolution & Creationism Debate at Museum

[Col. Hstar]

Those are specifications, not blue prints. If I gave your family the same instructions I have my doubts about your ability to get it done.

The bible is not a science textbook with cross sections and diagrams.

What you want is something neatly wrapped and set before on a silver platter, You're not going to get that. God draws close to those who draw close to them. (James 4:8) This means effort on our part is involved. If you really want know the answers don't be lazy and wait for it to be spelled out for you. If not then simply continue trolling the internet trying to knock other people's beliefs so you can feel more secure about yours.

Life without God means your existence is here and forgotten in the blink of an eye. Make the best you can of it, but in the end it's of no more consequence then a fly on the windshield.

[(SWGO)SirPepsi]

What about every detracting argument I've thrown at evolution? Did you ignore or counter those?
None of them was valid. There are legitimate concerns you've raised that scientists cannot answer definitively at the moment, but they aren't proof that Evolution doesn't occur on the scale I've suggested it does. The beauty of science is its practitioners' ability to adjust certain elements of their belief and continue researching specifics. If fossil records we thought connected x-human ancestor and x-human ancestor turn out to have been misinterpreted, we adapt and exclude the piece of evidence from the Theory. When we do that, we are improving upon our understanding of the world around us in such a way that brings us closer to fully mapping our origins.

I am ignoring nothing. Do the math on the internal capacity of the ark. It works in a Creationist perspective.
No, it doesn't. It never has.
So if tracing languages nullifies a mixed up world tongue, why is it that we can trace language development back to only a few languages as would make sense?
Because as humans evolved, it facilitated survival to be able to communicate, and so those who developed rudimentary tongues and gestures fared better than those who didn't. There was also a considerable narrowing of the gene pool several millions of years ago (this explains why the human genome is not too diverse) and its likely that those who survived were those who had best developed the ability to communicate and coalesce into communities. When people group together, they develop common customs.
Omnipotence, omniscience, and immortality are all tied up together. If there is something one does not know, then one is incapable of knowing that without seeking it, and thus is not omnipotent (because they were not capable of knowing that one thing immediately). If one is incapable of existing forever, then that is another thing they cannot do and thus they are not omnipotent. There is no contradiction here as there would be if one attribute existed without the others.
Omnipotence and Immortality are fundamentally incompatible. As are omniscience and emotion.
There is evidence for a flood, it's some of the same evidence that you use to say the earth is old. Since you refuse to admit an alternative explanation for it, of course it looks like I have no evidence. Concerning radiometric dating, you have to make several assumptions, namely, that the decay process has been proceeding at a constant rate. Now if you take, say, a giant flood, into account, do you really think the decay process would remain constant? It would cause it to accelerate, making it look like the rocks are older than they are.
"This could have happened, and if it did, it could explain something that may not even be true!"
Please give me some evidence that "proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that some Biblical accounts are inaccurate." I don't believe you have done that yet except to say that it contradicts some of what you believe.
Perhaps I was unclear - I said when there is evidence to completely discredit some Biblical stories, there will still be those who deny its merit.
There is no never ending loop. What you are frustrated with is the fact that I have already determined what I believe and thus interpret everything around me in accordance with that. I refuse to be swayed, but I can modify my theory to better fit my observations.

The bible is not a science textbook with cross sections and diagrams.

What you want is something neatly wrapped and set before on a silver platter, You're not going to get that. God draws close to those who draw close to them. (James 4:8) This means effort on our part is involved. If you really want know the answers don't be lazy and wait for it to be spelled out for you. If not then simply continue trolling the internet trying to knock other people's beliefs so you can feel more secure about yours.

Life without God means your existence is here and forgotten in the blink of an eye. Make the best you can of it, but in the end it's of no more consequence then a fly on the windshield.

If this is the case Homestar, there are multiple, equally-valid interpretations of the Bible.

[Col. Hstar]

The bible is not a science textbook with cross sections and diagrams.

What you want is something neatly wrapped and set before on a silver platter, You're not going to get that. God draws close to those who draw close to them. (James 4:8) This means effort on our part is involved. If you really want know the answers don't be lazy and wait for it to be spelled out for you. If not then simply continue trolling the internet trying to knock other people's beliefs so you can feel more secure about yours.

Life without God means your existence is here and forgotten in the blink of an eye. Make the best you can of it, but in the end it's of no more consequence then a fly on the windshield.

If this is the case Homestar, there are multiple, equally-valid interpretations of the Bible.

If what is the case...?

[(SWGO)DesertEagle]

Pepsi, you keep saying Omnipotence and omniscience etc are contradictory, but you are not explaining how.

I just gave you a logically coherent argument, and you are rebutting it by saying its wrong. Explain how I am wrong (i.e. point out the flaw in my logic). Explain how you can be omnipotent but not omniscient.

And you just gave one possible alternative for why languages can be traced back to only a few main tongues, but that doesn't refute my alternative interpretation.

You are stating your position but failing to refute mine, implying that they are valid alternatives. I was under the impression that you thought my position was invalid.

"This could have happened, and if it did, it could explain something that may not even be true!"

Easily said about evolution as well.

Ok, since you won't do the math on the Ark, I will do it for you.

1 cubit = about 21 inches (3 feet), different versions of the cubit exist, but they are generally close to each other in length.

Ark = 300 cubits x 50 cubits = 900 feet x 150 feet = 135,000 sq ft, give or take a bit for the different sized floors.

It was 30 cubits = 90 feet high, with 3 decks, each 30 feet high.

Going off one person's calculations, there are an estimated 1.4 million cubic feet of internal space, about the capacity of 522 standard livestock cars used on a train.

It is possible to transport 240 sheep in one livestock car, so doing the math, the ark could probably hold about 125,000 sheep-sized creatures.

However, there are many creatures much smaller than a sheep (insects, mice, dogs, cats, etc), and some larger. Assuming young animals were taken (as would make sense if you want to repopulate the earth), the general size of even the dinosaurs taken would have been relatively small. Assume that averaging the sizes of the creatures gives you a sheep sized creature. Assuming 2 of each type, you could have a maximum of about 60,000 species on board.

Now, here is where evolutionists have a problem, you say there are not enough species. However, we contend that Noah only had to take 2 (or 7) of each "type," not species (it is probably closer to the level of class).

So in the Creationistic framework, there is no problem with the capacity of the ark.

[Mandalore]

The bible is not a science textbook with cross sections and diagrams.

What you want is something neatly wrapped and set before on a silver platter, You're not going to get that. God draws close to those who draw close to them. (James 4:8) This means effort on our part is involved. If you really want know the answers don't be lazy and wait for it to be spelled out for you. If not then simply continue trolling the internet trying to knock other people's beliefs so you can feel more secure about yours.

Life without God means your existence is here and forgotten in the blink of an eye. Make the best you can of it, but in the end it's of no more consequence then a fly on the windshield.

There's a large difference between putting effort in and having to make completely illogical leaps in order to make your faith work for me. Frankly there's absolutely zero reason to believe in Christianity over any other religion in any case if I were to put my misgivings about the statistical probability of God and other religious workings. I haven't trolled in this thread even a tiny bit. If you're so [m'kay] uptight that me saying "Look! Science" makes you act like I've murdered your father and raped your mother (also @ Pan, loosen the [m'kay] up) then that's not really my issue at all. You guys act like questioning your beliefs is the equivalent of being burned at the stake. Good God indeed!

And does that last sentence really scare you so much? I mean I could throw back arguments about predestination and omniscience making your choices irrelevant in the long run if God were to be real but frankly I don't see the point in that. Life's what you make it. Happy or sad, eventful or boring. The vast majority of us will pass and our memories forgotten within a century by those who loved us. But if you make your life special, truly special, then your name will ring throughout history. I don't think we've forgotten Julius Caesar much in the past twenty centuries.

[(SWGO)DesertEagle]

The bible is not a science textbook with cross sections and diagrams.

What you want is something neatly wrapped and set before on a silver platter, You're not going to get that. God draws close to those who draw close to them. (James 4:8) This means effort on our part is involved. If you really want know the answers don't be lazy and wait for it to be spelled out for you. If not then simply continue trolling the internet trying to knock other people's beliefs so you can feel more secure about yours.

Life without God means your existence is here and forgotten in the blink of an eye. Make the best you can of it, but in the end it's of no more consequence then a fly on the windshield.

There's a large difference between putting effort in and having to make completely illogical leaps in order to make your faith work for me. Frankly there's absolutely zero reason to believe in Christianity over any other religion in any case if I were to put my misgivings about the statistical probability of God and other religious workings. I haven't trolled in this thread even a tiny bit. If you're so [m'kay] uptight that me saying "Look! Science" makes you act like I've murdered your father and raped your mother (also @ Pan, loosen the [m'kay] up) then that's not really my issue at all. You guys act like questioning your beliefs is the equivalent of being burned at the stake. Good God indeed!

And does that last sentence really scare you so much? I mean I could throw back arguments about predestination and omniscience making your choices irrelevant in the long run if God were to be real but frankly I don't see the point in that. Life's what you make it. Happy or sad, eventful or boring. The vast majority of us will pass and our memories forgotten within a century by those who loved us. But if you make your life special, truly special, then your name will ring throughout history. I don't think we've forgotten Julius Caesar much in the past twenty centuries.

The difference between you and me is that I have somewhere to look forward to after I die, but you don't. All you have is here, so you better make the most of it. For me, here is a very short part of my existence, so I concentrate on being ready for the rest of it and helping others do the same.

[Col. Hstar]

If you're so [m'kay] uptight that me saying "Look! Science" makes you act like I've murdered your father and raped your mother (also @ Pan, loosen the [m'kay] up) then that's not really my issue at all. You guys act like questioning your beliefs is the equivalent of being burned at the stake. Good God indeed!

No you're not trolling at all. Seriously son If I couldn't handle having to defend my beliefs then I wouldn't be responding to all your troll remarks.

Yes trolling

Already had my bath for God, but I'm smelly and fat so what could it hurt? ;)

I don't recall Jehovah voicing his displeasure at Communism's concepts. Although I'm sure he wouldn't like Marxism. He's quite a jealous little God, isn't he?

Anywho who claims morality in Jehovah is either willfully ignorant or utterly evil.

Oh, I was interested initially, but then I got bored with it.

Not trolling?.....riiiiiight

And does that last sentence really scare you so much? I mean I could throw back arguments about predestination and omniscience making your choices irrelevant in the long run if God were to be real but frankly I don't see the point in that. Life's what you make it. Happy or sad, eventful or boring. The vast majority of us will pass and our memories forgotten within a century by those who loved us. But if you make your life special, truly special, then your name will ring throughout history. I don't think we've forgotten Julius Caesar much in the past twenty centuries.

It doesn't scare me because I do believe in God. If you're fine with life without meaning beyond memories then more power to you. It's your right and your choice. The Bible says from dust we are to dust we will return.

Also go ahead and throw your arguments about predestination into the fray. I don't believe in that either

[Mandalore]

Oh, I for sure trolled the other thread. But not this one, at the very least not lately.

As for predestination, if God is omniscient then everything is essentially already layed out before us. Predestination follows omniscience if all the decisions we make were already known by an observing entity. Some apologetics do try and say that God limits his omniscience. However, this doesn't seem to be supported by scripture as far as I know.

[WD-40]

I believe we have some semblance of free will in our lives to make decisions. However, I also believe that 'evil' (yes Demons or fallen Angels) have the ability to 'influence' our lives to make poor decisions, and we are judged based on what we are capable of doing vs what we 'chose' to do.


I also believe that certain people are ordained to do certain things, perhaps even specific to God's Grand Design. I'm not talking about mass murderers and rapists, but World Leaders, Monarchs, military Generals, and various others who have great influence in the outcome of events. I also believe in multiple lives, and each 'life' we live either makes us grow or fall spiritually, and may be a part of judgement. You may not recall past lives here in this realm, but you will.
I don't believe we're meant to see the Big Picture, as that would be cheating like reading the last chapter of a book first.

That being said:

Why Worry?
In life there are only two things to worry about:
Whether you are well,
or whether you are sick.

Now if you are well,
You have nothing to worry about.

And if you are sick,
You only have two things to worry about:
Whether you get better,
or whether you die.

If you get better,
You have nothing to worry about.

And if you die,
You only have two things to worry about:
Whether you go to heaven,
or whether you go to hell
Now if you go to heaven,
You have nothing to worry about.
And if you go to hell, You’ll be too busy shaking hands with Your friends,
that you won't have time to worry.

[(SWGO)SirPepsi]

Pepsi, you keep saying Omnipotence and omniscience etc are contradictory, but you are not explaining how.

I just gave you a logically coherent argument, and you are rebutting it by saying its wrong. Explain how I am wrong (i.e. point out the flaw in my logic). Explain how you can be omnipotent but not omniscient.
No, you didn't - you listed the traits and told me they were compatible with one another, you said they are dependent on each other. I disagree, if God is immortal, he cannot die. If God is omnipotent, he should be able to do everything humans can do and more, including committing suicide. If he can't commit suicide, he is not omnipotent (all-powerful), and if he can, he is not immortal. If God is omniscient, he knows all. There are several verses in the Bible talking about God's "surprise," if he can be surprised (have that emotion), then he is not omniscient.
And you just gave one possible alternative for why languages can be traced back to only a few main tongues, but that doesn't refute my alternative interpretation.
I don't have to prove a negative. Burden of proof. You have no valid evidence.
You are stating your position but failing to refute mine, implying that they are valid alternatives. I was under the impression that you thought my position was invalid.
I don't have to prove a negative. Burden of proof. You have no valid evidence.
Easily said about evolution as well.
No, not easily said about evolution. We know that we exist (or we perceive that we exist), therefore coming up for an explanation as to how we came to exist is not the same as saying, "Radiometric dating could be flawed, and if it is, it might be caused by the flood." It is different because we know for a FACT that we and other species exist, and we don't know that radiometric dating is flawed.
Ok, since you won't do the math on the Ark, I will do it for you.

1 cubit = about 21 inches (3 feet), different versions of the cubit exist, but they are generally close to each other in length.

Ark = 300 cubits x 50 cubits = 900 feet x 150 feet = 135,000 sq ft, give or take a bit for the different sized floors.

It was 30 cubits = 90 feet high, with 3 decks, each 30 feet high.

Going off one person's calculations, there are an estimated 1.4 million cubic feet of internal space, about the capacity of 522 standard livestock cars used on a train.

It is possible to transport 240 sheep in one livestock car, so doing the math, the ark could probably hold about 125,000 sheep-sized creatures.

However, there are many creatures much smaller than a sheep (insects, mice, dogs, cats, etc), and some larger. Assuming young animals were taken (as would make sense if you want to repopulate the earth), the general size of even the dinosaurs taken would have been relatively small. Assume that averaging the sizes of the creatures gives you a sheep sized creature. Assuming 2 of each type, you could have a maximum of about 60,000 species on board.

Now, here is where evolutionists have a problem, you say there are not enough species. However, we contend that Noah only had to take 2 (or 7) of each "type," not species (it is probably closer to the level of class).
Sure, that could account for space. But the species variety we have today would make that impossible. Species didn't change or diffuse that quickly after a world-wide flood some 4 thousand years ago. We have way too many species, and you can't just say "well, we only need 7 of each 'type,'" that doesn't amount to evidence. It's like saying, well, the Sun is huge, so it could have been formed when fifty-million space mites swarmed in one place and were turned into gas and fire by an angry being whom they had offended.
So in the Creationistic framework, there is no problem with the capacity of the ark.
You can't invent evidence and apologist theories! It doesn't work - by that standard, we can "prove" anything. "My skin is light, I must have been made out of milk! See guys, it makes sense!"