Evolution & Creationism Debate at Museum

[CommanderOtto]

For Pepsi:

0k, here are my answers:

1. Gnostics. They claim a billion things, but they are divided and have many different beliefs that have nothing to do with the original scriptures. Their origins are based on greek philosophy and oriental mystical beliefs, which is already an indication that it is not from the original scriptures. Many of their beliefs are so contradictory to the Bible. Let me give you a few examples:

a. They believe in the "Gospel of James". This book says that Mary was a perpetual virgin before and after the birth of Jesus Christ. Yet, clearly this is a lie because the Bible clearly says:

Matthew 1:24, 25
24 Then Joseph woke up from his sleep and did as the angel of Jehovah* had directed him, and he took his wife home. 25 But he did not have sexual relations with her until she gave birth to a son,+ and he named him Jesus.+

Matthew 13:55, 56
55 Is this not the carpenter’s son?+ Is not his mother called Mary, and his brothers James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?+ 56 And his sisters, are they not all with us? Where, then, did he get all of this?”+

(note, if Jesus had brothers and sisters, then Mary was not a virgin anymore because she clearly had sexual relations with Joseph).

b. Gospel of Thomas is also used by the Gnostics. This book talks about Jesus as a child and using his powers for revenge to hurt people. In some cases Jesus supposedly blinds neighbors and also kills people.
c. Gospel of Judas, also used by the Gnostics. It says that Judas was a hero when the original scriptures put him as a traitor. Plus, it wasn't written by Judas, and it was written centuries after Judas (in other words, something made up). A scholar in early christianity called Bart Ehrman said about this book:

It is not a Gospel written in Judas’s own time by someone who actually knew him

So, just a real quick study of what the content is about, in about 1 hour, I could easily see that they are not part of the original scriptures. Either someone believes in the Bible, or believes in these. A christian cannot believe in both because they are contradictory. Not only are these books teaching something completely different from the Bible, but some like the Gospel of Judas, are not even from Jesus times. As I said before, a context and historical study of these texts already bring out the manipulations of the original text. This is why biblical scholars do not add these books to the Bible.

2. I have not found any evidence that Jesus was in India. Those are all theories, not evidence.

[(SWGO)SirPepsi]

It is not "clearly a lie." Perhaps the Biblical text is flawed, and the Gnostics are correct? Perhaps both are flawed? Will we ever be able to prove it either way?

I submitted to you a plethora of contemporary sources contradicting in some way with the Bible. You can't simply discount all of them and say "well, the Bible says this." The entire point I was making was that Biblical scripture is not inerrant. To say that everything else is without providing sound evidence is foolhardy.

Otto, many Christians already accept completely contradictory statements found within the Bible itself! I've demonstrated those contradictions repeatedly, but here's another: the two Creation stories found in Genesis that each give a different account of the order of creation. It's also important for you to understand that Christians are not a monolithic army; many denominations share entirely different beliefs, and claim the core tenets of their Church to be different than those of others. Christianity has also evolved over time; it has not, no er what deluded notions some people harbor, remained constant. And I can show you proof of this, if you'd like.

And, to be clear, I never claimed I believed Christ studied in India. You claim that these are theories, but so is every Biblical story; there is more evidence for Christ's studying under Indian monks (learning under and subsequently instructing Hindus and Buddhists!) than there is for a clearly ridiculous Tower of Babel and Noah's Ark. Many Indian documents remark as to his travels. In my view, those records are just as viable as the Bible.

Here is an excerpt from a book published by Russian scholar Nicholas Roerich:

... He passed his time in several ancient cities of India such as Benares. All loved him because Issa dwelt in peace with Vaishas and Shudras whom he instructed and helped. But the Brahmins and Kshatriyas told him that Brahma forbade those to approach who were created out of his womb and feet. The Vaishas were allowed to listen to the Vedas only on holidays and the Shudras were forbidden not only to be present at the reading of the Vedas, but could not even look at them.

Issa said that man had filled the temples with his abominations. In order to pay homage to metals and stones, man sacrificed his fellows in whom dwells a spark of the Supreme Spirit. Man demeans those who labor by the sweat of their brows, in order to gain the good will of the sluggard who sits at the lavishly set board. But they who deprive their brothers of the common blessing shall be themselves stripped of it.

Vaishas and Shudras were struck with astonishment and asked what they could perform. Issa bade them "Worship not the idols. Do not consider yourself first. Do not humiliate your neighbor. Help the poor. Sustain the feeble. Do evil to no one. Do not covet that which you do not possess and which is possessed by others."

Many, learning of such words, decided to kill Issa. But Issa, forewarned, departed from this place by night.

Afterward, Issa went into Nepal and into the Himalayan mountains ....

"Well, perform for us a miracle," demanded the servitors of the Temple. Then Issa replied to them: "Miracles made their appearance from the very day when the world was created. He who cannot behold them is deprived of the greatest gift of life. But woe to you, enemies of men, woe unto you, if you await that He should attest his power by miracle."

Issa taught that men should not strive to behold the Eternal Spirit with one's own eyes but to feel it with the heart, and to become a pure and worthy soul....

"Not only shall you not make human offerings, but you must not slaughter animals, because all is given for the use of man. Do not steal the goods of others, because that would be usurpation from your near one. Do not cheat, that you may in turn not be cheated ....

"Beware, ye, who divert men from the true path and who fill the people with superstitions and prejudices, who blind the vision of the seeing ones, and who preach subservience to material things. "...

Then Pilate, ruler of Jerusalem, gave orders to lay hands upon the preacher Issa and to deliver him to the judges, without however, arousing the displeasure of the people.

But Issa taught: "Do not seek straight paths in darkness, possessed by fear. But gather force and support each other. He who supports his neighbor strengthens himself

"I tried to revive the laws of Moses in the hearts of the people. And I say unto you that you do not understand their true meaning because they do not teach revenge but forgiveness. But the meaning of these laws is distorted."

Then the ruler sent to Issa his disguised servants that they should watch his actions and report to him about his words to the people.

"Thou just man, "said the disguised servant of the ruler of Jerusalem approaching Issa, "Teach us, should we fulfill the will of Caesar or await the approaching deliverance?"

But Issa, recognizing the disguised servants, said, "I did not foretell unto you that you would be delivered from Caesar; but I said that the soul which was immersed in sin would be delivered from sin."

At this time, an old woman approached the crowd, but was pushed back. Then Issa said, "Reverence Woman, mother of the universe,' in her lies the truth of creation. She is the foundation of all that is good and beautiful. She is the source of life and death. Upon her depends the existence of man, because she is the sustenance of his labors. She gives birth to you in travail, she watches over your growth. Bless her. Honor her. Defend her. Love your wives and honor them, because tomorrow they shall be mothers, and later-progenitors of a whole race. Their love ennobles man, soothes the embittered heart and tames the beast. Wife and mother-they are the adornments of the universe."

"As light divides itself from darkness, so does woman possess the gift to divide in man good intent from the thought of evil. Your best thoughts must belong to woman. Gather from them your moral strength, which you must possess to sustain your near ones. Do not humiliate her, for therein you will humiliate yourselves. And all which you will do to mother, to wife, to widow or to another woman in sorrow-that shall you also do for the Spirit."

So taught Issa; but the ruler Pilate ordered one of his servants to make accusation against him.

Said Issa: "Not far hence is the time when by the Highest Will the people will become purified and united into one family."

And then turning to the ruler, he said, "Why demean thy dignity and teach thy subordinates to live in deceit when even without this thou couldst also have had the means of accusing an innocent one?"

From another version of the legend, Roerich quotes fragments of thought and evidence of the miraculous.

Near Lhasa was a temple of teaching with a wealth of manuscripts. Jesus was to acquaint himself with them. Meng-ste, a great sage of all the East, was in this temple.

Finally Jesus reached a mountain pass and in the chief city of Ladak, Leh, he was joyously accepted by monks and people of the lower class .... And Jesus taught in the monasteries and in the bazaars (the market places); wherever the simple people gathered--there he taught.

Not far from this place lived a woman whose son had died and she brought him to Jesus. And in the presence of a multitude, Jesus laid his hand on the child, and the child rose healed. And many brought their children and Jesus laid his hands upon them, healing them.

Among the Ladakis, Jesus passed many days, teaching them. And they loved him and when the time of his departure came they sorrowed as children.

Try this: http://hinduism.about.com/od/lordkrishna/a/christ_krishna.htm as well.

[(SWGO)Max]

I submitted to you a plethora of contemporary sources contradicting in some way with the Bible. You can't simply discount all of them and say "well, the Bible says this." The entire point I was making was that Biblical scripture is not inerrant. To say that everything else is without providing sound evidence is foolhardy.

Otto, many Christians already accept completely contradictory statements found within the Bible itself! I've demonstrated those contradictions repeatedly, but here's another: the two Creation stories found in Genesis that each give a different account of the order of creation.

I've only paid a tiny bit of attention to this whole thread, but when did you state contradictions that are actually found in the Bible and proven to be contradictory? & Where do you find 2 contradicting creation stories in Genesis?

[(SWGO)SirPepsi]

I submitted to you a plethora of contemporary sources contradicting in some way with the Bible. You can't simply discount all of them and say "well, the Bible says this." The entire point I was making was that Biblical scripture is not inerrant. To say that everything else is without providing sound evidence is foolhardy.

Otto, many Christians already accept completely contradictory statements found within the Bible itself! I've demonstrated those contradictions repeatedly, but here's another: the two Creation stories found in Genesis that each give a different account of the order of creation.

I've only paid a tiny bit of attention to this whole thread, but when did you state contradictions that are actually found in the Bible and proven to be contradictory? & Where do you find 2 contradicting creation stories in Genesis?

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/accounts.html

[[NH]Shadow]

?
Please

[Col. Hstar]

:lck: ?
Please

No one is forcing you to read posts in this thread

It is not "clearly a lie." Perhaps the Biblical text is flawed, and the Gnostics are correct? Perhaps both are flawed? Will we ever be able to prove it either way?

I submitted to you a plethora of contemporary sources contradicting in some way with the Bible. You can't simply discount all of them and say "well, the Bible says this." The entire point I was making was that Biblical scripture is not inerrant. To say that everything else is without providing sound evidence is foolhardy.

I see no evidence that this plethora of contemporary sources is correct either. Simply copy and pasting texts you find by googling bible contradictions is not submitting evidence. I really wish you would make your own arguments instead of having people read conspiracy and skeptic links about why our you think our arguments are wrong. But oh well....

[(SWGO)SirPepsi]

It is not "clearly a lie." Perhaps the Biblical text is flawed, and the Gnostics are correct? Perhaps both are flawed? Will we ever be able to prove it either way?

I submitted to you a plethora of contemporary sources contradicting in some way with the Bible. You can't simply discount all of them and say "well, the Bible says this." The entire point I was making was that Biblical scripture is not inerrant. To say that everything else is without providing sound evidence is foolhardy.

I see no evidence that this plethora of contemporary sources is correct either. Simply copy and pasting texts you find by googling bible contradictions is not submitting evidence. I really wish you would make your own arguments instead of having people read conspiracy and skeptic links about why our you think our arguments are wrong. But oh well....

My motive in sharing these records was simple: to illustrate that documents in direct conflict with Biblical teaching do exist. I never stated I had faith in any of these: my arguments are my own - because the word "evidence" is something foreign to you, I will explain that I source material because I feel it is far better-articulated and offers a viewpoint that I may not necessarily agree with in its entirety but that I think contributes to the discussion.

Your hypocrisy is evident, as you constantly cite Bible verses to back up your claims.

[CommanderOtto]

Your hypocrisy is evident, as you constantly cite Bible verses to back up your claims. [/color]

of course, we are talking about the Bible!

So far you have submitted things from yahoo answers or "About.com" and other websites that are clearly not evidence. The Bible is not scientific evidence of the type you would like, but if you claim it to be false, we have to cite it, do research and prove your point is incorrect.

but then, let me ask, what proof is there that Jesus went to India?? About.com lists similarity of stories, which is a pure theory with absolutely no evidence, nothing more. The beliefs of Hindus are completely different from those taught in Christianity.

and by the way, I just explained to you, gnostics were other Pagan religions from the middle east that had no connection with the original scriptures. The fact that they later "mixed" with Christianity. It is pretty obvious they manipulated the text to gain more followers. Not very different from what happened in the middle ages when the church accepted the use of a cross to symbolize Christ, when in fact that symbol comes from nordic pagan religions. One thing is the original texts, another thing is mixing it with pagan mystic beliefs later on. The gnostic books in the Bible feels like adding a chapter of Physics in the middle of a Poetry book. It doesn't belong there. The content does not match.

[(SWGO)SirPepsi]

Your hypocrisy is evident, as you constantly cite Bible verses to back up your claims. [/color]

of course, we are talking about the Bible!
No, in a debate about Biblical Inerrancy, passages from the book I'm attempting to debunk do not constitute valid evidence. You need to corroborate Biblical accounts with fact, and you'll notice I didn't criticize his use of the Bible until he called me out on sourcing information he didn't agree with. I'm not limited to looking at the Bible when attempting to disprove it or when illustrating contradictory doctrine.
So far you have submitted things from yahoo answers or "About.com" and other websites that are clearly not evidence. The Bible is not scientific evidence of the type you would like, but if you claim it to be false, we have to cite it, do research and prove your point is incorrect.
I've not once cited "Yahoo Answers," and I find it disgusting the way you conveniently ignore the numerous scientific articles I cited in the beginning of the thread and the multiple Biblical analyses written by established scholars. What about the hour lecture by the IV League University Professor? While trying to mis-portray my arguments, you have cast light on the type of discourse you enjoy engaging in - discourse that reaffirms your views.
but then, let me ask, what proof is there that Jesus went to India?? About.com lists similarity of stories, which is a pure theory with absolutely no evidence, nothing more. The beliefs of Hindus are completely different from those taught in Christianity.
There exist a wealth of Indian accounts, authored by monks and officials alike that tell the story of Christ visiting India. This documentary is done by the BBC: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiy5uY3Iw2s. Is that source legitimate enough for you? I'm not saying that these accounts are necessarily true, but I am saying that other cultures offer accounts of Christ in their territory - even the Japanese believe he visited their island.
and by the way, I just explained to you, gnostics were other Pagan religions from the middle east that had no connection with the original scriptures. The fact that they later "mixed" with Christianity. It is pretty obvious they manipulated the text to gain more followers. Not very different from what happened in the middle ages when the church accepted the use of a cross to symbolize Christ, when in fact that symbol comes from nordic pagan religions. One thing is the original texts, another thing is mixing it with pagan mystic beliefs later on. The gnostic books in the Bible feels like adding a chapter of Physics in the middle of a Poetry book. It doesn't belong there. The content does not match.
There are no "original scriptures," (who are you to say which is correct and which is not without supplying evidence?) and your laughable "explanations" do not elucidate the nature of the scripture. To me, the inclusion of some of the Books in the Bible feels exactly as you described, and the exclusion of others, like the Gospel of Thomas, to me appear to be motivated by a desire to preserve the idea that Jesus was divine, despite the fact that he never claimed to be. Thomas talks about his Jesus's childhood, and much evidence suggested Christ was in love with Mary Magdalene, some of that evidence is found in Thomas. I wonder why the Church excluded his account - he was a disciple after all.

[Col. Hstar]

Your hypocrisy is evident, as you constantly cite Bible verses to back up your claims.

My hypocrisy???

I am defending the bible, yet I'm not supposed to defend it by citing scriptures in it??

When you post your copy/pasted arguments which twist meanings and out and out omit context, of course I'm going to cite scriptures.

Would you rather I find a youtube video with some random Joe saying why you should believe in the bible.

I can't believe I'm about to say this but I miss responding to Mandlore, at least he took the time to explain his arguments from his own perspective.

Man just a couple of post back I said I respected your beliefs, I guess now I have to edit that as I've lost respect for you.