CommanderOtto wrote:Mandalore wrote:Now, while I think Dreadnaught is [female dog] of an idiot in other spectrums of policy. Mainly all the others, really. However, on this subject we're in almost complete agreement. We've already seen what harsher enforcement of immigration laws does. Here's an article I found after literally five seconds of searching.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/20 ... backfires/Essentially, the labor market was 40% short of its needs due to a lack of immigrants because natural born Americans just don't want to do this [poo].
I know, but dread is saying something in the order of bringing many more in a similar style of the gilded age... That's why I said immigration has to be carefully planned. Just ignoring illegal immigrants is going to cause problems in areas of agriculture as you said... but that does not mean that everyone can just come here. In this case people are right that too much illegal immigration does depress salaries. The problem is that they are illegal and not much information can be collected to adequately make a study on it. In economic journals there are a few professors that can make wild claims as well... and I can only wonder how someone could make a study on depression of salaries on information that does not exist because these people are illegal (no documentation). The basic mechanisms of the market are there ... and they will work as I just said. How much will it depress salaries? I don't know, it could be a lot, it could be a little... and I don't think any economist can actually do that safely with little information (no taxes, no work records, nothing). But if you completely open borders so that employers can hire anyone from abroad, like dread said, it would be disaster. I am pretty sure the world price of labor is way below than that in the u.s.
that reminds me... a farmer that hires illegal immigrants is cheating and making everything harder on honest farmers. Either farmers pay more for legal workers like everyone else, or the u.s government increases immigration just enough to cover that demand. Besides I don't agree with Forbes because they think that bringing more immigrants will magically free up americans to go study in the university and do higher skilled work after that.
Wow!
You really showed me.
I mean, you've mastered the 5th grade explanation of supply and demand. From Wikipedia no less. You must have an ADVANCED public school education. You must have VAST experience in real world finance, global economics and international trade. I'm certain that your certifications and qualifications in academia and real world experience dwarf and eclipse any I may have amassed through the years. I'll not spend paragraphs detailing my bonafides in this forum, but I'll simply say I don't THINK I'm smart...I AM smart. And I don't use "fancy" words...I use words. If you think they're "fancy" you should work on your vocabulary. Suffice it to say I have enough calligraphy on the wall and enough scars on my heart, hyde and soul to paint your face, dress you in motley and confidently declare you the master of merriment, follies and japes. That you would apply supply and demand principles in such a myopic way shows me your comedy can well be described as Magoo.
The both of you cant see the forest for the trees and hence can't understand what I'm getting on about. Let me try it this way. Simple. Un-nuanced.
It is better to spend U.S. capital and currency on domestic goods and services than foreign ones.
Currently there is an excess amount of currency exported to purchase imported goods. The majority of U.S. corporate capital spending is in foreign interests and economies.
These facts have HUGE implications on our economy including employment, wages, inflation and the gap between rich and poor.
The biggest reason these two factors exist is because other nations can use cheap labor to meet the demand for consumer goods at the current inflation rate. Americans can make the same products in the absence of foreign competition, but because of labor costs alone the affect on inflation would be astronomical and unacceptable. For the American economy to restore the capacity to meet these consumer demands the middle class must collapse and all but disappear (currently happening). A lifestyle with cheap affordable consumer products would disappear and only the rich could afford the semblance of a lifestyle enjoyed by the majority of Americans today. The ripple effect of these issues could quite literally destroy our country. All it would take to trigger such a calamity is a trade war with one or more of 3 major trading partners, but most notably China.
In order to avoid such collapse and to strengthen our own economy to a return to world power status our domestic economy needs to have competitively paid unskilled laborers so American companies can manufacture the goods in high demand in CONUS. Having spent most of my life in Michigan I've seen the manufacturing jobs go. I know the folks who still have what are left and I've been to China and have seen where they went. Only a whiny, liberal, academia [female dog] could decry the lifestyle of the unskilled laborer of the "gilded age" in America when comparing the lifestyle of the foreign peasant worker of today. And today's unskilled laborer in America (legal or illegal) has it a hundred times better in comparison.
The United States has a total population of approx. 314 million. Of that we have 155 million "work force capable". China has 798 million and a poverty estimate (living on less than $1/day($229/year)) of 100 million. India is worse with between 150 and 300 million (varying data). Those people would KILL for a $4/hour job of ANY sort. Currently, we can't compete with that. But we can if we let them immigrate.
Using a controlled system like what is currently in place (Green Card) but with a nearly non-existent quota system, we could swell our low skilled workforce to a level that, if exempted from minimum wage laws, could take back the industry we've lost. This would increase the number of middle and upper income opportunities as well. We would reduce our trade deficits and possibly increase exports. Tax revenue will increase with organic growth rather than hikes.
BTW, the stock market bubble Mandalore is talking about isn't as mysterious as he thinks. The market is working. The value of the companies whose stock is trading is truly going up. Investment dollars is being spent on capital improvement and expansion. The reason it doesn't show up in other indicators in our economy is because all that capital is going overseas. Improving the economic indicators of foreign holdings. The reason the rich are getting richer is because they invest. Their investments are paying off. They are just not in this country. A low cost labor pool would allow for successful capital investment and smart legislation providing carrot and stick could aid in creating the industry to keep these immigrants working and create new opportunities for current and future Americans to enjoy.
Otto, read this
Washington post Article. It does a good job of discussing your fears about immigrant labor displacing and depressing American low-skilled jobs and wages. I hope after reading it you too will come to the conclusion that my method of increased immigration to create a low cost labor pool would not cause significantly more harm than is caused today by illegal labor and that the increased opportunities will only help in both the short term and long term future.
Henry Ford created America's middle class by taking a low skilled/paid labor force and having them build things they could afford to buy. Our economist have forgotten that definition of middle class. Let's teach it to them again.
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