Why MT doesn't believe in this.

[Col. Hstar]

Your ideas are dangerous... When they're on the societal level. That's all they're saying. When you have a pair of societies with differing beliefs that they both believe are infallible, that's how you get never ending wars. If you need an example, just look at the constant fighting between the Sunni and Shi'a.

But If my belief strictly states that I should bring now harm to anyone, how does that work into you example. Because that is my belief. I refuse to partake in wars that governments fight. I don't do physical, or mental harm to anyone else. In fact, I follow the command Jesus gave when he said to turn the other cheek. So you tell me. If one belief is completely peaceful how can it be a harm to anyone?

And by the way, going by your first sentence there, you're implying that you're a moron as well. You're saying that I'm just being a moron for the sake of it, while you're being a moron because you truly believe what you say. Work on your wordplay a bit, Homestar.

I really don't care about my wordplay. It's 2:55 in the morning. If' you want to really argue then argue. You were trolling before, when you troll no one knows when to take you seriously and when not to. As for now the jury is still out.

[[m'kay]]

Your ideas are dangerous... When they're on the societal level. That's all they're saying. When you have a pair of societies with differing beliefs that they both believe are infallible, that's how you get never ending wars. If you need an example, just look at the constant fighting between the Sunni and Shi'a.

But If my belief strictly states that I should bring now harm to anyone, how does that work into you example. Because that is my belief. I refuse to partake in wars that governments fight. I don't do physical, or mental harm to anyone else. In fact, I follow the command Jesus gave when he said to turn the other cheek. So you tell me. If one belief is completely peaceful how can it be a harm to anyone?

And by the way, going by your first sentence there, you're implying that you're a moron as well. You're saying that I'm just being a moron for the sake of it, while you're being a moron because you truly believe what you say. Work on your wordplay a bit, Homestar.

I really don't care about my wordplay. It's 2:55 in the morning. If' you want to really argue then argue. You were trolling before, when you troll no one knows when to take you seriously and when not to. As for now the jury is still out.

Ah yes, and of course the Muslim faith is all about ripping out your enemies' throats, yeah? After all, everybody knows that all things started with good intentions are never warped or perverted beyond their initial intention, right? I understand what you're trying to say, but saying there is nothing inherently negative about the way you believe something is the first step along the road to hell. As for your second statement, I could say the same to you - if you really want to argue, then argue. Don't sit there condemning me as a troll simply because i'm debating on your level in a much more manageable way than shoving walls of text down eachothers throats. As for turning the other cheek, I sure as hell haven't seen a lot of that in this thread. If you really wanted to turn the other cheek, you would've abandoned the thread after it was clear nothing was going to come of it, saying that you believe what you want and the other side can believe what they want.

And don't say that's what you've been doing all this time, Homestar. Actions speak louder than words, and your continuing this argument long past the point of uselessness says a lot more than your platitudes.

[Col. Hstar]

1 Ah yes, and of course the Muslim faith is all about ripping out your enemies' throats, yeah? After all, everybody knows that all things started with good intentions are never warped or perverted beyond their initial intention, right? 2 I understand what you're trying to say, but saying there is nothing inherently negative about the way you believe something is the first step along the road to hell. 3 As for your second statement, I could say the same to you - if you really want to argue, then argue. Don't sit there condemning me as a troll simply because i'm debating on your level in a much more manageable way than shoving walls of text down eachothers throats. 4 As for turning the other cheek, I sure as hell haven't seen a lot of that in this thread. If you really wanted to turn the other cheek, you would've abandoned the thread after it was clear nothing was going to come of it, saying that you believe what you want and the other side can believe what they want.
5And don't say that's what you've been doing all this time, Homestar. Actions speak louder than words, and your continuing this argument long past the point of uselessness says a lot more than your platitudes.

I've marked in your quote spots where I am responding.

1) We are discussing my personal beliefs. I never debated specific religions. Sure there have been those in the past and presently who are violent fanatics, but I'm not one of them simply because I believe the Bible is 100% reliable. I guess if stereotyping is your thing and that's the way you want to judge me, then that's your opinion. I don't respect it but it's yours.
2) Actually I don't believe in Hell so I'm good there
3) Like I said, the last time you were on this thread, you were trolling. It was hard to tell if this was the case till a few posts ago.
4) I actually had been content to leave the thread after MT said he was coming back into. You were the one who engaged me (Pg82 post 7) by saying I was ignoring the posts and arguments of others. (I've yet to see proof of that BTW) As for turning the other cheek as it relates to physical violence, which is the context I was speaking of. And actually on pg 78 post 9 I had done just that.
5) I don't know what your accusing me of? Debating and arguing on a debate/argument thread?? Is this related to the turning the cheek statement which I already addressed? (See 4)

I'm going to bed now so a response will have to come tomorrow after work.

[[m'kay]]

1 Ah yes, and of course the Muslim faith is all about ripping out your enemies' throats, yeah? After all, everybody knows that all things started with good intentions are never warped or perverted beyond their initial intention, right? 2 I understand what you're trying to say, but saying there is nothing inherently negative about the way you believe something is the first step along the road to hell. 3 As for your second statement, I could say the same to you - if you really want to argue, then argue. Don't sit there condemning me as a troll simply because i'm debating on your level in a much more manageable way than shoving walls of text down eachothers throats. 4 As for turning the other cheek, I sure as hell haven't seen a lot of that in this thread. If you really wanted to turn the other cheek, you would've abandoned the thread after it was clear nothing was going to come of it, saying that you believe what you want and the other side can believe what they want.
5And don't say that's what you've been doing all this time, Homestar. Actions speak louder than words, and your continuing this argument long past the point of uselessness says a lot more than your platitudes.

I've marked in your quote spots where I am responding.

1) We are discussing my personal beliefs. I never debated specific religions. Sure there have been those in the past and presently who are violent fanatics, but I'm not one of them simply because I believe the Bible is 100% reliable. I guess if stereotyping is your thing and that's the way you want to judge me, then that's your opinion. I don't respect it but it's yours.
2) Actually I don't believe in Hell so I'm good there
3) Like I said, the last time you were on this thread, you were trolling. It was hard to tell if this was the case till a few posts ago.
4) I actually had been content to leave the thread after MT said he was coming back into. You were the one who engaged me (Pg82 post 7) by saying I was ignoring the posts and arguments of others. (I've yet to see proof of that BTW) As for turning the other cheek as it relates to physical violence, which is the context I was speaking of. And actually on pg 78 post 9 I had done just that.
5) I don't know what your accusing me of? Debating and arguing on a debate/argument thread?? Is this related to the turning the cheek statement which I already addressed? (See 4)

I'm going to bed now so a response will have to come tomorrow after work.

God knows I love debating in list format, as it's the most interesting way to lay out your opinions and have them reacted to. That is sarcasm.

1. It's not as if personal beliefs don't have the opportunity to blossom into religions, Homestar. That's pretty much how every single religion's started in the first place. Dangerous beliefs are still dangerous, even if they don't become so until a certain scale has been reached.

2. That was more wordplay. You know, "road to hell is paved with good intentions", all that? It makes things more interesting to read, instead of just sitting there going "well no". It's also a lot more fun to write, you gotta get all clever and [poo]. I strongly recommend it to everyone, because it makes things more lively and oh god I sound pretentious as hell i'm just gonna stop.

3. I don't know what you've seen that implies i'm not trolling, or for that er whether I am. I don't even know at this point.

4. Ah yes, and clearly one can't turn the other cheek if they've been "engaged"! Why, that's only the entire meaning of the bloody phrase, Homestar. Loving the rationalization about the "only physical violence" bit, whereas before it also included mental.

5. Oh gee, i'm sorry for continuing my point when you already addressed it in a post that only came into existence long after I finished my own. I don't really get what you're trying to do here - haha, you got me, i'm not a time traveler? I don't jump into my police box for every single forum argument? I mean seriously man, what?

[Darth Crater]

Homestar, after reading the last couple pages, I have to say my position remains the same:
-You are not an evil or bloodthirsty person.
-Therefore, you reject the bad and problematic parts of the Bible (or at least some of them).
-By doing so, you (as you yourself have stated) create your own interpretation of the Bible.
-However, you have for some reason decided that you believe the Bible (itself, not your interpretation) is perfect and infallible.
-This has led to you constantly contradicting yourself, defending utterly impossible hypotheses, and discrediting yourself.

Still think that you believe the Bible isn't contradictory? Take 10 minutes, watch this video. Tell me, one by one, exactly why each of those is not contradictory. That, or give me a general proof, covering all cases, that the Bible is not contradictory. This is the problem with "absolute" claims - you have to either address every possible case, or provide a general proof covering all cases. One of these two is absolutely necessary to prove your claim, and I've seen neither. Without this, the Bible is contradictory whether you think it is or not.

One other observation - if the parts such as Deuteronomy and Leviticus are no longer valid or relevant, why have they not been cut out? Why have they not been updated to provide useful advice? Why are they there for the fundamentalists and madmen to interpret at all?

Everyone else - hopefully I'll be posting something not directly about Homestar in the near future. Might be the responses I owe to Cypher or Ariel, or something new. Meanwhile, Wulf - you seem to me to be pretty sensible. I'd like to better understand your beliefs. Tell me, for now - do you believe such a thing as a "soul" exists? If so, why? How about "sin"?

[THEWULFMAN]

2) Actually I don't believe in Hell so I'm good there

Okay. Now you're just being inconsistent and I see exactly what Crater has been talking about. You say the Bible is 100% accurate. Um, the Bible is the thing that talks about hell. It states pretty simply if you do not believe in Jesus being the son of god then you are going to hell. It's also pretty clear in there that hell sucks.

@Crater

Ah, do humans have a soul. That's a very good question. I'm leaning toward yes, I'm completely convinced we can prove we have one scientifically someday. There are so many things we don't understand yet that it would be irresponsible to decide so early when there isn't proof that we don't have souls. I think Duncan MacDougall had the right idea but his methods were horrible and his results were damn inconsistent I don't trust his finding despite the fact that it would support my claim. So basically my answer is I don't know if we have souls or not.

I'm guessing we do, simply because it's the only way Heaven and Hell would make sense and it would explain spirits. Yes go ahead everyone laugh at me, I believe in ghosts. None of this crap you see on TV mind you though, with a couple exceptions. I believe because of personal experiences I've had. I don't believe anything, and I mean anything is "paranormal" though. I think it's a bad term. It implies it is beyond something science can explain, and I call bullcrap. I believe everything can be explained properly with science eventually.

The idea that a soul is a byproduct of superior intelligence has crossed my mind but I have nothing to back it up. Simply something I thought of when I'm considering how my religion fits into my beliefs in evolution. Which, in case I haven't been clear, I do believe humans evolved from primitive primates. Ugh, this is off-topic but just a pet peeve of mine. I hate it when people say "oh humans can't have evolved from apes because apes are still here." UGH! Humans and apes both evolved from a common ancestor, we didn't evolve from apes! Anyway, I digress...

Now sin is a topic I can talk about a lot easier. I believe sin exists, but the list things that are sinful in my mind are a lot shorter than most people's I'd imagine.

• 1) I believe murder of innocents is a sin(not involuntary manslaughter though).
• 2) I believe rape is a sin.
• 3) I believe theft is a sin.
• 4) I believe adultery is a sin.
• 5) I believe people who lie for personal gain is a sin(#EveryPoliticianEver).
• 6) I believe slavery in any form is a sin.

That's about where it ends. I don't believe consensual sex in any form is a sin in and of itself, unlike pretty much every other Christian. I don't believe killing is a sin, as long as the person who is killed is not innocent (i.e. a man robs you at gun point and you kill him). I don't believe homosexuality is a sin, nor the act of it. If I'm wrong, God can send me to hell and I won't even mind. I'd rather be in hell than say that homosexuality is a sin. Um, are there any other stupid things people say are sins that I forget? Let me know.

Then of course I should define what sin actually is to me. I think it's simply things that not only does God hate but also things we shouldn't do just for moral reasons. I think I've got pretty simple standards, deduced by what my views of morality are. Not what the bible tells me. I've always hedged on whether to include "worshiping other Gods" as a sin because I happen to respect other religions (except Mormons, and Scientologists) even if I don't believe in them. Who am I to decide if they're wrong or not? It's not my place.

I don't think sins and laws should be talked about in the same sentence. I mean sure, sins generally have laws against them, but that isn't always true. And heck, involuntary manslaughter, while not a sin, is still against the law. And like, only half of the states have adultery against the law. There are also many things that should and should not be against the law that aren't sins.

Peace.

P.S.

Glad you could join in on this Narg. :)

[[m'kay]]

Right well I was going to jump in on this after Wulf responded since I didn't want to just be like "oh i'm glad you asked ME let me give you MY opinion", but it seems like he deleted his post or something so here goes. (okay now he's readded the post except with more words I have no shame)

At risk of being completely out of character here, i'd like to say what I think souls are about. I believe in reincarnation, so the "existence" of a soul is an open and shut case for me. No, I can't prove it, and I have no intention of trying. The only "evidence" I have is purely anecdotal and so divorced from anything that can be fundamentally proved that it barely bears mentioning, but there have been times where i've felt much, much older than I have any right to. I'm not talking about "oh man i'm so much more ~adult~ than my peers" or anything, but just a crushing sense of age. Yeah, part of it is just the usual teenage mentality of feeling like you've seen it all, but really it's not even at the point where I can go "haha you're all taking this life thing way too seriously", but more just feeling absolutely tired of everything and wanting to move on. Again, not in a physical sense. I've been wondering if this isn't a form of spiritual enlightenment or whatever - after all, a lot of Buddhism or Hinduism, can't quite remember which revolves around the idea that this world is pain, and understanding that and deciding to give this world up is a large part of being given access to Nirvana.

If this sounds like a bunch of rambling, it almost certainly is. I like to think i'm a pretty good writer, but trying to express my feelings on this er just makes me feel like a complete idiot when I look at it in writing. To sum it up, I feel that the soul is not a blessing but a burden put upon us so that we might understand the world. After all, nobody could comprehend the world in a single lifetime, and I feel that that is the absolute pinnacle of spiritual perfection. To understand the world is not to become the ruler of it, but to realize just how petty and low it is, and to want to move on. It's not a fun little exercise, it's not a reward of any sorts that the soul strives for - it's to realize that the limits of this world are far too small, and that all the effort you put into your understanding was, in the end, something you could have skipped all along. Of course, it's not as if you could realize that without putting in the effort in the first place, but hell maybe that's the whole point.

Sin, on the other hand... Yeah, it exists. Yeah, it's inherently evil. But it's also part of the world - erasing all sin would erase an integral part of what humanity is. However, sin is such a broad subject that it's far too difficult to nail down. Everything is a sin to someone at some point in the span of humanity's existence, and that is pretty much a fact. I feel that the concept of sin is much more important to understand than any one instance of it, as it's constantly in flux. I honestly haven't spent much time reflecting on the nature of sin, but really it doesn't seem to be a very complicated concept beyond "yo this is bad [poo] we don't want you to do it ok".

And Wulf, you are psychic and you have freaked me out, but no problem.

aw [m'kay] i've done a wall of text too i've become one of themmmmmmmmmmmm

[THEWULFMAN]

And Wulf, you are psychic and you have freaked me out, but no problem.

That's what I'm here for.

That smiley is so damn perfect for this.

[Col. Hstar]

@ Narg -
My beliefs are not dangerous because the core of it promotes being peaceful with everyone regardless of race, nationality, and ethnic groups, as well as people who believe things entirely different from me. The only way it becomes dangerous is if someone goes against this core belief. If that happens, then that person and I do not believe the same thing.
As far as the whole turning the other cheek, if I really , really hurt you mentally then you have my deepest apologies for causing you such grief and pain.

@Crater -
How many time do I have to tell you that your projecting your interpretation of the Bible onto my beliefs. I get the feeling that your expecting me to actually back-off and say the Bible is inconsistent. It ain't gonna happen. Yes I do have my own interpretation of the Bible, and I base my beliefs on that interpretation. That doesn't make me wrong, in your eyes it might, but your not the law around here, and neither is popular opinion. I get to chose how to interpret things for myself, and I get to base my beliefs on said interpretations.
As far a Deuteronomy and Leviticus are concerned, they were not cut out because they give us insight to how God views different situations. It shows the kind of conduct he hates and the kind he loves. Paul wrote:

For all the things that were written aforetime were written for our instruction, that through our endurance and through the comfort from the Scriptures we might have hope

@Wulfman -
Again same as Crater, you base that on your interpretation of the Bible.
The word “hell” is found in many Bible translations. In the same verses other translations read “the grave,” “the world of the dead,” and so forth. But the original words used were, in Hebrew she’ohl′ and in Greek, hai′des, both refer, not to an individual burial place, but to the common grave of dead mankind. As for the teaching of Hell, the Bible says:

Condition of the dead:

For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten

His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; In that day his thoughts do perish

The Cost of Sin

For he who has died has been acquitted from [his] sin

For the wages sin pays is death

If a religion teaches hell, that is the inconsistency. The Bible states that God is Love (1 John 4:8) What would you think of a parent who held his child’s hand over a fire to punish the child for wrongdoing?

[THEWULFMAN]

I'm actually going to relent on the hell thing because I've never been too sure on that one myself. To me it always kinda seemed that your punishment is death, and your reward is eternal life. But whatever. I've got time to figure out what I believe.

However, I still understand what both Crater and the Colonel are trying to say.

I still don't know how you can defend the OT. The OT god was a prick. The NT god is cool and [poo]. He goes to all the cool night clubs now.