American Christians, do you feel persecuted?

[Outrider]

Ohh...wow...Aren't you 'The Professor' of Life! Geee....maybe we should all bow to your perfection and wisdom? As you were OutHouse.

I think you are confused; I wasn't the one overreacting to being corrected. If you can't take criticism without throwing a tantrum like a child, then it is you who sees your own self as perfect. I admit I might not look and smell very pleasant, but please, the name-calling is quite unnecessary.

I'm a professional jet Pilot...that's 'Pilot' as in Aviator. I also served in the U.S. Navy for 12 years. That's where my 'expertise' is. I'll go toe-to-toe with you on those subjects any day. But I can grasp almost anything.

If that is the case, then grasp radiometric dating completely first before purporting your misunderstanding of it as an understanding, and then you wouldn't need to make a big fuss when someone goes to correct you. And I will do the same if we are to ever discuss aviation or the U.S. Navy.

This proves my point... I could make a flawless essay and then a STUPID person like you makes a comment without even thinking.

Except you didn't write a flawless essay, and it resulted in someone commenting on one of those flaws, i.e. your statement that the validity of evolution implies whether or not a person holds onto his or her religion. And again, Christianity isn't the only religion in the world, and not all religions have a creation aspect to them, and not all religious people who follow a faith that does have a creation aspect to it believe in that creation aspect.

"Law: In everyday language, a law is a rule that must be abided or something that can be relied upon to occur in a particular situation. Scientific laws, on the other hand, are less rigid. They may have exceptions, and, like other scientific knowledge, may be modified or rejected based on new evidence and perspectives. In science, the term law usually refers to a generalization about data and is a compact way of describing what we'd expect to happen in a particular situation..... The term law may be used to describe many different forms of scientific knowledge, and whether or not a particular idea is called a law has much to do with its discipline and the time period in which it was first developed"

I noticed how you specifically bolded the "may be modified or rejected" part in that explanation you found. But it is important to note that what you bolded preceeded "based on new evidence and perspectives." In order for something to be scientifcally rejected, it must be scientifically scruntinized through rigorous tests. The theory of evolution has stood these tests, and it is here to stay, at least for now (since, as you already, science is always open for change). You, on the other hand, are straight-off rejecting (everyday use definition) evolution in favor of something that is much more inferior in terms of available evidence. So I don't really see how you are using the Scientific Method here.

[CommanderOtto]

Otto - you're still connecting evolution directly to atheism, as well as creationism directly to Christianity. Wulf and I don't think that they are inherently connected, save perhaps that all creationists must believe in a creator.

Could you answer this question for me? Why are there Christians (for example: the Pope) who believe evolution occurred based on current scientific knowledge? If they are able to reconcile it without losing their faith, how is the debate between evolution and other explanations dependent on religion, or vice versa?

well Crater, don't worry i'll be clear.. no beating around the bush. Now to respond your questions, read below:

The God that made the world and all the things in it . . . made out of one man every nation of men, to dwell upon the entire surface of the earth - Acts 17: 24-26

I don't know how the pope managed to believe in evolution when the Bible is clear, in many sections, that he created Adam and Eve as the first man and woman. I don't see the Bible say in any place that there were people before Adam and Eve.

In my opinion, if evolution was the truth, then creation would be false. If creation is false, then the Bible is false. If God is the "God of Truth" then everything in the Bible must be completely true. If Evolution was completely true, then God would be a liar because he said he created men. There is no way I could believe in two things. Or I believe in Evolution, which means that the Bible is false, or I believe in what the Bible says. Not both for me..(in my opinion)

how is the debate between evolution and other explanations dependent on religion, or vice versa?

Creationism means there was a creator, in other words, a God. So, I guess, if the debate is "evolution vs creationism" , it automatically involves a God.

Please, don't go down Homestar's route of filling your post with arguments about semantics. Unless you have conducted experiments or gathered evidence indicating that evolution did not happen, the Scientific Method and all the rest of that is unrelated.

well you guys want science, here I am bringing it. I just quoted two great sources and one of them clearly says that the theory of evolution can't be proven. What can I say?

I'll quote again: Take, for example, the Big Bang Theory or the Theory of Biological Evolution as it pertains to the past; both are theories that explain all of the facts so far gathered from the past, but cannot be verified as absolute truth, since we cannot go back to test them and Outrider, you clearly don't know how to read. Read this again please. Evolution has clearly become a Dogma.

[THEWULFMAN]

[...]but now this thread got out of control, so don't expect me to respond to your DUMB comments.

You just did.

well then you are an imbecile... a real DOLT... [...]then a STUPID person like you[...]

Insults.

[...]A civilized conversation[...]

You claim you can have civilized conversations, but you can't refrain from using insults.

You really don't get it. Of course it wasn't a personal attack, I'm not that self-centered, but it was an overall one that encompassed myself and many others like me. You make the statement in such a way which was open to interpretation. You don't want to do that when debating, but then again, you don't want to debate. So why are you even here?

I believe in God. I believe the Bible is flawed. I know Evolution to be a fact. Many would claim I am not a Christian, because of my beliefs, as you might.

You believe the Bible is 100% accurate then? Every bit, beginning to end? All the teachings are correct, nothing is wrong.

[Outrider]

I don't know how the pope managed to believe in evolution when the Bible is clear, in many sections, that he created Adam and Eve as the first man and woman. I don't see the Bible say in any place that there were people before Adam and Eve.

The Bible isn't exactly the ideal piece of scientific evidence. The Bible may say that God is the creator of all things, but what makes the Bible valid?

I'll quote again: Take, for example, the Big Bang Theory or the Theory of Biological Evolution as it pertains to the past; both are theories that explain all of the facts so far gathered from the past, but cannot be verified as absolute truth, since we cannot go back to test them and Outrider, you clearly don't know how to read. Read this again please. Evolution has clearly become a Dogma.

Oh, I can read just fine. I acknowledge that they aren't the absolute truth, but there is overwhelming evidence to support these two theories, as opposed to creation, which, according to you, only has the Bible, a scientifically incredible source. The evidence for the Big Bang and evolution is as accurate as me going into my room and finding a photograph of my dog holding a clock with the short hand on the six and the long hand on the 12 and a calendar with today's date circled, while standing in front of the window with the sun rising in the east. I can conclude based on this evidence that my dog was in my room early in the morning without me having to be there in space and time to fully verify it. It may not be the absolute truth, but it sure does give a very very good idea. And evolution is and has never been a dogma. But creation sure is: accepted when there exists overwhelming evidence that says otherwise.

[CommanderOtto]

You really don't get it. Of course it wasn't a personal attack, I'm not that self-centered, but it was an overall one that encompassed myself and many others like me. You make the statement in such a way which was open to interpretation. You don't want to do that when debating, but then again, you don't want to debate. So why are you even here?

I don't appologize, you did take it personally when it was simply my opinion, so stop lying... so you deserved it. And i'm only here because Crater asked a question but it is hard to leave without responding sometimes......

last words though, and it is not an insult to anyone. It is my opinion....................I don't bend the Bible into something I can accept or to accomodate it to what people think. I accept it as it is. And regarding the Pope, he's just a man, I prefer to believe in what the Bible says only. Who gave authority to the Pope to speak for God? (my opinion, no one take it personally) There are many people out there who know more about the Bible than him, humble people who are motivated only by their wish to know the Bible better and not motivated by fear of loosing people at church.

that's why I admire people like Tyndale or Miles Coverdale, Casiodoro de Reina, Alfonso Zamora, Benito Arias, and Lorenzo Valla. Men of the Renaissance that were willing to go against the tide, and risked their lives to bring good translations of the Bible or that were willing to prove the Pope wrong.

[THEWULFMAN]

I don't appologize, you did take it personally when it was simply my opinion, so stop lying... so you deserved it.

I don't need an apology. I wasn't lying. Deserved, "it?" What is this "it?" Your insults? What are you, 14? Grow up and learn how to communicate with people who disagree with you without reducing yourself to using insults.

[CommanderOtto]

I don't appologize, you did take it personally when it was simply my opinion, so stop lying... so you deserved it.

I don't need an apology. I wasn't lying. Deserved, "it?" What is this "it?" Your insults? What are you, 14? Grow up and learn how to communicate with people who disagree with you without reducing yourself to using insults.

you see, stop lying... let me quote you again.

I personally am insulted by this statement. How dare you try and decide for me what I believe?

You are making the exceedingly incorrect statement that Evolution =/= Religion.

You are saying that if one believes in Evolution you are not a true Christian. How dare you?

oh mom please help me, he personally attacked me... next time, if you read and don't take it personally, then I will stop.

[Outrider]

last words though, and it is not an insult to anyone. It is my opinion....................I don't bend the Bible into something I can accept or to accomodate it to what people think. I accept it as it is. And regarding the Pope, he's just a man, I prefer to believe in what the Bible says only. Who gave authority to the Pope to speak for God? (my opinion, no one take it personally) There are many people out there who know more about the Bible than him, humble people who are motivated only by their wish to know the Bible better and not motivated by fear of loosing people at church.

While I don't have a problem with you believing this or other Biblical studies, can you at least not claim to be a scientific person since you're really not one? Because you're bending science into something that is not really science at all and acting like it is science. Heck, I wouldn't even mind if you were completely anti-science. Just don't impose your nonscientific beliefs onto science, and then everyone can live in harmony.

[CommanderOtto]

last words though, and it is not an insult to anyone. It is my opinion....................I don't bend the Bible into something I can accept or to accomodate it to what people think. I accept it as it is. And regarding the Pope, he's just a man, I prefer to believe in what the Bible says only. Who gave authority to the Pope to speak for God? (my opinion, no one take it personally) There are many people out there who know more about the Bible than him, humble people who are motivated only by their wish to know the Bible better and not motivated by fear of loosing people at church.

While I don't have a problem with you believing this or other Biblical studies, can you at least not claim to be a scientific person since you're really not one? Because you're bending science into something that is not really science at all and acting like it is science. Heck, I wouldn't even mind if you were completely anti-science. Just don't impose your nonscientific beliefs onto science, and then everyone can live in harmony.

no, I like science very much, and admit it, if evolution was so prooven, then there would be no controversy. I can like science and the Bible just like crater believes in evolution and the Bible at the same time. Maybe we don't agree but well, who am I to judge him and say he's wrong?

and I know it's a little off topic, but some of you guys should really try to learn a thing or two about the men I just mentioned, it is really interesting, even if you are looking at it from a strict historical point of view (no religion). Lorenzo Valla and his Donation of Constantine is very interesting. He proved with Historical information that the Pope had forged a document where Constantine gave all his kingdom to a priest, which supposedly allowed the Pope to rule over Europe. So basically, Valla called the Pope a liar, which was true because we know today that the document was indeed a forgery. Wow I loved that book.

[THEWULFMAN]

*Shaking my head*

You're not even worth my precious time.

I'll admit I haven't explained this in the best of ways and have used my language improperly. Not that you're doing any better.

I did not feel you were saying "Hey Wulfman, you're not a Christian."

I felt you were saying "If you believe in Evolution, you're not a Christian."

When I said "personally" I meant it like, "I don't know about you guys but I am insulted."

I've never lied to you or anyone else here. There was just a misunderstanding.

You can have the last word. I'm not going to respond again unless you start insulting my mother or other assorted infantile actions that my honor would demand me to intervene in.

EDIT: Also, LOL, Crater is an atheist. He just agrees with me that Evolution and Religion can go hand-in-hand, not that he personally has a religion.